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Friday, October 25, 2013

Citizen's Arrest - A Different Look at the New Industrials

[EDIT 10/25/13 09:00 - Correct points below about not needing to actually scram the ganker once they fire. CONCORD will get them regardless. However, let's not forget there is a mental aspect to PvP that most carebear lack - the kill reflex. There is a barrier between just surviving and actively hunting the hunter. It's a hard barrier to cross. I know first hand. Carebears who want to be care-badgers need to overcome this barrier to successfully make the transition, and actively scramming and webbing promotes that. Also, in PvP, you should always do those things that are most fundamental to the process of PvP. Scram and web is a basic tenant of PvP. Do not ignore it just because the CONCORD mechanic obviates the need for it. Train as you fight; fight as you train. Don't build a bunch of exceptions in your head. You won't have time to consider them and will DIAF. Besides, what else are you going to do with those middle slots? And how do you get a killmail if you don't target the ganker? You might as well go ahead and do it right.]

One of the most frustrating aspects of high-sec industrialism is the suicide gank. Nothing produces more angst than watching your hard earned assets vaporize around you so fast CONCORD can't stop it. For those who are unfamiliar with the mechanics, CONCORD has a response time depending on two things. The first variable is the security rating of the system. The lower the security rating, the slower the CONCORD response. The second variable is a timing variable for lack of a more precise term. I works like this. If a gank has already happened in system and CONCORD as not de-spawned, CONCORD assets will  respond faster to a second criminal activity.

There is some debate on what the actual response times are in reality. However, I discovered a blog post last year by Tippis where he tested CONCORD on SISI, the test server. The bottom line is it took no longer than 35 seconds for CONCORD to destroy a criminal. It took no longer than 19 seconds for CONCORD to completely web, neut, jam and castrate the criminal.

[EDIT 10/25/13 09:30 - as there has been some debate (jeez, who knew)  in responses to this post about CONCORD response times, here is the conclusion Tippis reached by actual testing.
Conclusion
There are two large bands of response times: one for the highest sec levels (0.8 and above, essentially anywhere where you cannot anchor structures), where it's hard to tell a difference without much more numerous tests, and another for “mid-sec” (0.5–0.7, the parts of highsec where anchoring is possible), where the response times quickly ramp up. 
1.0 — 6±1 seconds.
0.9 — 6±1 seconds.
0.8 — 7±1 seconds.
0.7 — 10±1 seconds.
0.6 — 14±1 seconds.
0.5 — 19±1 seconds.
These base times can at the moment be modified depending on what else is going on in the system or at the location (this may change when Crimewatch 2.0 is rolled out).
Pre-spawning CONCORD reduces the response time 0.5 to 9 seconds; to 9 seconds in 0.6; and to 2 seconds in 1.0 (more testing of the in-between levels is needed).
Moving pre-spawned CONCORD adds 6±1 seconds.
TMK, the results have not changed with Crimewatch 2.0 as CONCORD response was not part of the final update.]

What that means for high-sec care-bears who want to become care-badgers is you have to hold the suicide ganker for at least 20 seconds until CONCORD arrives and deals with them. This would be the New Eden equivalent of citizens arrest. To make a citizen's arrest, you have to make certain your ship is able to not only survive the suicide ganker's alpha, but hold his ship in place until CONCORD arrives. Then they'll do the "dirty work" for you.

So how does one do that? Well, before Odyssey and the changes to industrial ships, one had to trade cargo capacity for defensive/offensive modules: cargo expanders for armor modules. Even if you relied on shield tanking, you had to trade tank for offensive ability to make the Citizen's Arrest.

With new dedicated cargo holds, that is no longer necessary. Any care-bear interested in making a citizen's arrest now has a chance to do so, while still conducting their primary focus of making ISK. In a bit I'll show fits that could do the job. But first, I want to state a few facts of life in New Eden.

First, there is no ship fit anywhere in New Eden that will win every time. Second, a determined opponent will almost always get their kill. Third, the gank I will discuss is the single Catalyst suicide gank. Catalysts are very popular for suicide ganking because they are cheap and produce a large alpha even when T1 fit. However, for the purposes of this discussion I am going to base my analysis on Jester's T2 Suicide Catalyst found here. Here is the fit he posted in that article.
[Catalyst, Suicide T2]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
Supplemental Scanning CPU I, Scan Resolution Script 
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S 
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[empty rig slot]
According to Jester (and EVEHQ Fitter concurs,) "Alpha is 880 or so every 1.6 to 1.8 seconds, for 500 to 550 DPS." Your industrial needs to be able to tank that damage for at least 30 seconds. That's a total potential of 16,500 damage. This requires an active tank with some buffer to absorb the Catalyst's volley damage. It will also require a practiced flying technique to reduce the amount of damage the Catalyst can effectively deliver. Don't think you can just fit these ships and win. You won't, but it is possible with training.

Defense isn't the only thing your ship is going to have to do for 30 seconds. Your ship has to hold the Catalyst on grid until CONCORD arrives. To do this you have to both Scram and Web the Catalyst. That will put a huge drain on your capacitor, but it is manageable.

So, on to the industrial ship fits. I am using Gallente models because hey, it's me. I have specifically created very cheap T1 fits. Any module you can swap out for a higher meta module will help - sometimes a great deal. Now be aware, my skills are high and some of these fits are power tight. You may need to sacrifice an armor rig for a second power rig. This will decrease your tank and make the citizen's arrest a more dicey proposition, but you should still be able to carry it off. I checked these fits against my son's 30 million SP PvP character and only the Epithal required a second power rig. All numbers I give are for the 30 million SP character. If you are below 30 million SP, your results WILL vary. Here's the Epithal fit.
[Epithal, Citizen's Arrest]
2x Small Nosferatu I 
10MN Afterburner I
Warp Scrambler I
Stasis Webifier I
Tracking Disruptor I (Optimal Range Disruption Script) 
Damage Control I
Explosive Plating I
Adaptive Nano Plating I
Medium Armor Repairer I 
2x Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
This fit has the least tank of any of the new industrial ships at 5662 EHP. It can repair 60 damage per cycle. That is only 1800 damage total, but every little bit helps. Now here is a very interesting point. IF you can fit an Ancillary Armor Repairer, that's the one that uses Nanite Repair Paste, your repair rate goes up to 135 damage per cycle. That's better than a T2 repairer. Keep that in mind. It doesn't take long to train and it makes these fits MUCH more survivable.

This fit is extremely power limited even with the two power rigs. The key to this ship is its speed. It is faster than the catalyst even if both ships are not webbed. Notice I did NOT use an MWD. That's why, the afterburner works where an MWD gets scrammed. Oh, and it also keeps the sig radius down. That's important because you fight this ship to avoid DPS rather than deliver it. You can't absorb the entire potential DPS the Catalyst can put out so you must avoid damage by flying smart.

Here's what I mean by that last statement. If you let the Catalyst do what it does best, you will not survive until CONCORD arrives. It will chew through your armor and you will not be able to repair enough to make it 30 seconds. You need to stay as far from the Catalyst as you can while still keeping him from warping off, and you need to reduce his ability to deliver DPS. That's why there is a tracking disruptor with a range script. The Catalyst is already pretty damn near sighted. If you can reduce that even further, you will make it so long as you stay at your optimal and don't give him a clean shot. Keep your transverse velocity high. Your optimal is far enough away his guns can't hit as hard.

If your tank does start to break, with the afterburner you have the option of quickly stepping out of harms way and warping off. Even if you have to do the latter, imagine the stain on the ganker's seat when you scram and web him and take several volleys without crumbling. What ganker expects the prey to become predator? That alone is worth the risk to me.

Along the same lines as the Epithal, we have the Miasmos and Kryos. They are practically the same ship.
[Miasmos/Kryos, Citizen's Arrest]
2x Small Nosferatu I 
Small Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster 100)
Warp Scrambler I
Stasis Webifier I
Tracking Disruptor I (Optimal Range Disruption Script) 
Damage Control I
Explosive Plating I
Adaptive Nano Plating I
Medium Armor Repairer I 
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
2x Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
These ship fits have no afterburner. Once committed, you are there until someone explodes unless you get lucky. You are warned. This isn't for the faint of heart. The fits have 5771 and 5807 EHP respectively and are cap stable with the cap booster 100 charges and the NOS active. You can increase the size of the cap booster charge to alleviate the need for the NOS. Fly this as you would the Epithal. With the web you can still stay out of optimal but it is trickier with less room for mistakes. Flying these fits require more pilot skill (and I don't mean SP) than the Epithal.

And last, let's look at a bait ship just for good measure. I call this a bait ship because you still have to trade cargo modules for tank modules. However, if your intent is to bait and gank the ganker, this is your ship. Put something really juicy in the cargo hold and lure them in like honey.
[Nereus, Gank Bait]
2x Small Nosferatu I 
10MN Afterburner I
Warp Scrambler I
Stasis Webifier I
Tracking Disruptor I (Optimal Range Disruption Script)
Small Capacitor Booster I (Cap Booster 200) 
Damage Control I
Explosive Plating I
2x Adaptive Nano Plating I
Medium Armor Repairer I 
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
2x Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I 
6x Warrior I
This fit has 11,472 EHP. It has the best tank of the three fits because it has an extra middle and lower module slot. This fit is also cap stable with the NOS active or with larger cap charges. You have a rather large cargo hold with which to carry plenty. There is plenty of extra CPU and power to play around with various modules, and T2 modules fit nicely if you can use them. This ship even comes with drones so you can pod the ganker if you want. The other fits would require you to drop a NOS to do so; they all have one turret so it's possible. Just remember, if you want to lure gankers, you have to appear as helpless as possible. Don't over do it.

In closing, I'd like to point out again that these ships are not designed for PvP. None of them have much more than 50% resists and all have thin buffers. The goal with these fits is to hold a suicide gank Catalyst on grid until CONCORD arrives to destroy them. That is all. And that goal isn't for the faint of heart. Gankers often have buddies. You should have some too if you really want to even the odds. And if you really want some lulz, your buddies should all be in battle Ventures. Good luck!

25 comments:

  1. Some good analysis and recommendations, but a few minor corrections re: the actual tactics/mechanics of the gankers:

    People don't generally use catalysts to gank t1 haulers, they use cats to gank mining barges. You see more thrashers/larger ships(especially tornados) ganking t1 haulers.

    Secondly, you don't have to hold gankers on grid until Concord arrives. If someone gets off grid after going criminal in highsec(criminal, not suspect), before Concord arrives; just petition them and they will be banned. But you won't see it, because you'd have to create a new exploit to do it. (It used to be possible to do a slingshot and warp away to kill 2 ships on 2 different grids with 1 suicide gank but CCP changed warp mechanics to make it no longer possible)

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  2. Did you consider Ewar? Fill a Miasmos with a rack of Gallente jammers and you rather mess up ganker's plans.

    Even unbonused one jam getting through means you win. Also since most gankers ship scan and only go for sure things they're likely to skip you rather than risk an embarassing calamity.

    I'm also not sure why you fit a scram. Surely you don't have to hold them on grid? If they warp off after triggering concord, concord will find them and kill them, it's not avoidable.

    [Epithal, citizens arrest]

    400mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
    Energized Kinetic Membrane II
    Energized Thermic Membrane II
    Damage Control II

    'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
    'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
    'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I
    'Hypnos' Ion Field ECM I

    [Empty High slot]
    [Empty High slot]

    [Empty Rig slot]
    [Empty Rig slot]
    [Empty Rig slot]

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    Replies
    1. @Stabs Yes, I considered ECM. There were a couple of reasons I didn't put it in. First off, see the edit I entered at the top of the post. This post is aimed at carebears, not hardened PvPers so the scram and web called for IMO. Secondly, industrials really suck as jammers. The just don't have the sensor strength to pull it off. You might get a jam in, or you might not. I've played around with my corp mates trying to jam them with a viator while in the hole. I never got a successful jam off. The tracking disruptor is a surer bet IMO. And the last thing about letting them warp off, you get no killmail for that. If you are going stand your ground and be a care-badger, get a killmail to show for your effort. I know I'd want it.

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  3. Alright. I'm confused. Why do you think you need to hold Gankalysts on grid till CONCORD arrives?

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    Replies
    1. See the edit added to the front of the post. Also, how else do you expect to get a killmail?

      Delete
    2. Right. Better idea.

      [Miasmos, ore hauler]
      Damage Control II
      Inertia Stabilizers II
      Inertia Stabilizers II
      Inertia Stabilizers II

      Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
      Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
      Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 100
      Medium Shield Extender II

      Small Tractor Beam II
      Salvager II

      Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I
      Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I
      Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I

      You align in 7 seconds (including Server tic) so the ganker will have to be very much on ball to catch you. If he does catch you, overheat the afterburner (which is why its a meta, better heat properties) and turn at a 90 degree angle to him. your suddenly doing 500-550 m/s transversal which is a very good way to mitigate his gun damage since he's using small guns on a BC sized object (you). Other people have pointed out the 17sec lock time already so, I'll let that be. My final point is thus: Your not going win the fight, so you should do your best to avoid it (Insert obligatory Sun Tzu quote here) Honestly I find combat mods on indies akin to a Factory original pickup truck drag racing a McLaren F1. Good for the lolz and that's about it.

      Brad314

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  4. Nice ideas, but I thought since the boomerang exploit of tornados warping back an forth your warpdrive is disabled the moment you get a "concord comes kill you" flag.
    I might have missed something there. Nice fittings none the less.

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  5. You do not need a point or a web... once you get a criminal flag in HS, you cannot warp and have to wait for concord to kill you. The gank target just need to aggress the ganker to get on the kill mail and should try to survive.

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  6. Sorry, but a couple of things I feel need to be addressed.
    One is the DPS. That's pretty low. Most gankers will be overheating at the very least. Some chuck in implants too.

    The second is very important, and that's this:
    "Defense isn't the only thing your ship is going to have to do for 30 seconds. Your ship has to hold the Catalyst on grid until CONCORD arrives."
    This is not true. This is only true if you desparately want to see the ganker explode. To survive a gank your goals should try to do all 3 of the following:
    - Tank or reduce the damae of the catalyst until conrod arrive
    - Remove yourself from the area, moving away from the ganker
    - Force the ganker to move away from you

    The reason for this is that once they fire at you, they will die. There is no way around that. Avoiding or tanking concord is an exploit and a bannable offense, so holding them on grid is really not required. The ganker can jump off to planet 2 if he likes, but concord will follow and will kill him. Should he survive the gank, by keeping on the move, he has just opened himself up to a swift whack from the banhammer.
    So for this, you'd be better off fitting either more thank, or ECM.

    For an active fit, chucking on some sensor dampeners and an mwd and a web is pretty good. MWD away from then as quickly as you can, and damp the living hell out of them. Once you are beyond about 5k, they will be struggling to hit you. and they should have a tiny targeting range.
    The other option is to fill out on ECM, to jam out their targeting. a single successful cycle from an ECM is usually enough to put a ganker out of action until concord smashes them.

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  7. "What that means for high-sec care-bears who want to become care-badgers is you have to hold the suicide ganker for at least 20 seconds until CONCORD arrives and deals with them. This would be the New Eden equivalent of citizens arrest. To make a citizen's arrest, you have to make certain your ship is able to not only survive the suicide ganker's alpha, but hold his ship in place until CONCORD arrives. Then they'll do the "dirty work" for you."


    I don't understand the basic premise. Since when can a ganker escape Concord? All the victim has to do is to survive for 20 seconds, not to hold / arrest the ganker. A ganker may try to warp away but Concord will catch up with him in every case.

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    Replies
    1. How do you expect to get a killmail if you just survive? You have to target them back.

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    2. Killmail or more tank? Is that really a question for the case at hand?

      Who cares about killmails anyhow? :-P

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    3. Hehe - sadly, there are gankers (like a certain goblin) who put a great deal on KB stats.

      Though I'm with most of the commenters here - fit your hauler for defense first, and then, if you have space and really want that KM, add an offensive module. A Tracking Disruptor, a Neut, or even a single gun would suffice.

      Delete
  8. You don't need warp scrambling. Highsec gankers are required to die by CCP fiat.

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  9. you're fundamentally mistaken - you do not have to hold a ganker on grid for them to die. Even if they warp away, condcord will get them. In fact, if they somehow figured out how to avoid concord that would be an exploit and could get them banned. So all in all, you do not need warp/scram on your barge, and in fact by adding them you sacrifice tank. Ofc if you want to get on the km for lols then you need some sort of offensive mod or drones. I prefer drones - since they will automatically attack anyone who red boxes you. Makes for funny km - like the time I went to the "head" and came back and found that my hulk had killed a tempest....

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  10. Since Gevlon Goblin has already done the Ganker-side research on this, I'd suggest just using his work to determine your needed tank (http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2013/08/catalyst-ganking-guide.html) His gankiest Catalyst is 637 dps.

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    Replies
    1. Gelvon thinks eve is a zero sum game taking any of his advice without your own research pry means u should go back to wow. I didn't realize ppl actually read that Crap

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  11. You don't even need to do all those active tactics when the best offense here is a good defense:

    [Epithal, Civilian Arrest]
    Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
    [empty low slot]
    [empty low slot]
    [empty low slot]

    Large Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I
    Limited Thermic Dissipation Field I
    Limited Kinetic Deflection Field I
    Medium Azeotropic Ward Salubrity I

    E5 Prototype Energy Vampire
    E5 Prototype Energy Vampire

    Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
    Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
    Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I

    Left empty lows to fill as you desire and used the two NOS to give you your targetting requirement but this fit alone (and it's only Tech 1/Meta) has a 4.7k buffer with just under 25k EHP vs. a Catalyst's damage profile. That's more than enough to handle a single catalyst ganker and depending on the location, enough to handle two.

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  12. I take it you've never actually *tried* doing any of this. It looks nice on paper and all, but you're forgetting one extremely important aspect: scan res. The scan res on the 4 industrials you mentioned ranges between 81.5mm and 106mm. With that kind of scan res, it will take you about 14-17 seconds to lock up a destroyer. By the time you react and acquire a lock, concord has likely already shown up on the scene.

    A pair of scripted sensor boosters more than halves your lock time. I'd propose a fit like this one:

    [Epithal, anti-gank]

    Damage Control II
    Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
    Armor Thermic Hardener I
    Armor Kinetic Hardener I

    Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
    F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
    F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution Script
    DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

    [Empty High slot]
    [Empty High slot]

    Medium Ancillary Current Router I
    Medium Ancillary Current Router I
    Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


    Train thermodynamics, overheat everything you can, and you'll come out ahead. Because of the post-cycle nature of armor reps, you'll want to activate it (with heat) at the first sign of trouble. Same with those hardeners. Cap isn't a concern, as you'll only need it for 20 seconds or so.

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    Replies
    1. Now THAT is the best point made so far. I did completely forget about lock time. However, you are only partially correct in that I've not tried this. I've not tried this in the new ships. I've tried it in an Itty V (old style) and Occator. I've not actually killed a ganker either. I've had to warp out because I'm just not that good a pilot - yet. The only CONCORDOKKEN I've ever actually gotten on the killmail for I was in an Assault Frigate during Hulkageddon one year.

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  13. "care-badger" - I like that term :) But KMs should be the last thing on a truly rational care-badger's mind - denying the ganker the kill should be the only objective.

    Ok, except in cases of psychological warfare.

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  14. I understand that this is not the point of your post, but why not use a T1 logi? That would allow you to save the ship(s) being attacked.

    I've never heard of a ganker getting away with their ship, even in 0.5 systems. This may be b/c the miners that I know fit their ships correctly, and so the kill takes a while. With a sebo, T1 logi can lock up all barges quickly (due to their fairly large sig radius) and save them.

    If you want KM's, put drones on the barges. As long as they have decent resists, a T1 logi should be able to keep them alive.

    Thoughts?

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    Replies
    1. Hiya Nolan. I only mentioned getting buddies to assist and did not delve into the idea of logi support because the post was already a bit long. I was aiming at the newer player (thus the T1 fits) and trying to get them to think a little different than run and hide. CCP has done a good job in giving us industrial ships that are actually survivable. It was something we care badgers asked to receive for a very long time. Now that we have them, we need to start thinking a but differently. This was my attempt at trying to get that across, as well as put up some fits that might enable that sort of game play. YMMV.

      Delete
  15. Bunch of istabs, cloak, afterburner 2x wcs & fill the rest with tank..... You are a hauler. Your priority is to gtfo

    ReplyDelete

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