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Friday, June 14, 2013

Was it a Gank?

Last night we we ran sites. Before we ran them, we closed our static, we did not open the new one and we put a scout out who's only job was to monitor our C6 for new incoming wormholes. Then we started killing Sleepers. During the course of five sites, we had no new K162s appear and we completed everything without incident. Had one appeared, we'd have had instant warning and the order to POS-up would have been given. The capitals would have gotten webs to get them there and then the sub-capitals would themselves abandon the site. I've also outlined all this before. This is how you run sites in deadly space.

After we salvaged the last Sleeper wreck, with the fleet still assembled, we decided to start rolling the static to see what we could find. On our second roll, we found carriers and dreadnaughts in an anomaly. With eyes on the targets, word quickly went out and an even larger fleet began to assemble.

While the fleet gathered, the occupants of our static did indeed notice a new signature appear. Probes soon populated the static system and within a couple minutes their scout arrived at the K162 we'd opened. We had an interdictor there and a warp bubble went up to preserve the connections. The race was on!

The other wormholers were not fools. They bugged out. That is all of them except one Archon. It was evidently warp scrambled by the Sleepers who were still quite plentiful as it seems they had just started to clear the site. We descended upon the hapless carrier like locust on ancient Egypt. At optimal range I laid into the Archon's shields and armor with a half dozen Neutron Blaster IIs spitting Void. The carrier was in triage though and we barely made a dent in it's armor.

Still, Aura announced the self-destruct activation on the carrier not long after we started our attack. I continued to fire even though the Sleepers were now focusing on our ships. The home team had started the site as a full escalation, there were well over a dozen Sleeper battleships still on the field. We lost a Guardian to them. Their alpha was so high our remaining three Guardians were overmatched. We continued to hang tough though.

Then our scouts announced an enemy capital fleet warping for our location. They landed and engaged. The carrier went down and I had not only last blow but most non-Sleeper damage (which wasn't much mind you.) The carrier had self-destructed. In the heat of the fight, I didn't stop to wonder why he hadn't aborted the countdown when the cavalry was on it's way.

But now we were between a rock and a hard place. We had Sleeper battleships with enough alpha to obliterate anything sub-capital on one side and a fleet of angry capsuleers in dreadnoughts on the other. We lost half a dozen more sub-capitals, including a 663.5 mISK Legion to the carrier pilot who'd just blown up his Archon.

We bugged out. The fleet returned once more in sniper ships. The enemy bugged out to regroup. There were no kills and no losses. Again the order was given to leave. We'd obviously overstayed our welcome and further action in their home system would be without the element of surprise. It was time to go. Besides, we'd gotten what we came for. The carrier was a smoldering wreck floating in the vacuum of Anoikis space. We returned home and collapsed the static.

All in all I thought it was a good fight. They lost a carrier to us and we lost six sub-capitals to them. I am not counting Sleeper loses; them's just the breaks. We won the ISK war and they won the numbers war. Fair dinkum all around. But word filtered back to us that our raid had been labeled a gank by the victims. Had I participated in a gank? This disquiets me even this morning. Was it a gank to attack a carrier that was warp scrambled by Sleepers and unable to escape? You decide.

Fly Careful


  1. Your "victims" were just unhappy with the realization of the added risk that scramming rats imparted to the situation. They didn't like how the fight went (if they'd saved the carrier the story would be entirely different, I assure you) and spun a narrative to make you the bad guys, plain and simple. Don't let it get to you.

  2. Of course that was a gank. Like a catalyst obliterating a mining barge you descended upon a ship doing PvE with a fleet of ships fit for PvP. He obviously wasn't baiting (Why SD when baiting?) so yeah, clear gank.

  3. NO.

    A 'Gank' is most often used, in my experience, in reference to a Suicide Gang Kill (in Hisec) or just a Gang Kill, hence Gank, in Lo & Null against unarmed targets. The rules in Negsec, Anoikis, for me personally and in my years in holes, are different from Empire, and I do not that feel ANY attack on any 'armed' combat vessel of any class or make can be called a gank.

    If your target can fight back, as I did when I got scrammed and webbed in that very same site last night, at 10v1 odds as I watched my fleet warp out (not bichin, Pell made the right call, those are just the breaks) and lost my Loki, was I ganked? Nope.

    You said it Mab, you fly in Anoikis, you learn the rules and you live, or die, by 'em. Now we have 'ganked' people in holes and any ship I attack and kill that is not or cannot be armed, that to me, is a gank.

    But last night was an an Ambush and a GF plain and simple and all the whingin' and whinin' in the 'verse will not change that.

    Those guys live in a high class hole and had the temerity to ask, after the action, why we didn't ASK them for a fair fight? Simple, because we don't and I would be willing to bet they wouldn't have if the shoe was on the other foot.

    It is a CHOICE to play EvE, and it is a further CHOICE to play EvE in Anoikis.

    Was it a Gank? No, it was an...

    am·bus·cade (amb-skad) n.
    An ambush.

    tr.v. am·bus·cad·ed, am·bus·cad·ing, am·bus·cades

    To attack suddenly and without warning from a concealed place;

    plain and simple.

  4. So... Rumeme, you feel an Archon Carrier is the same as a mining barge? get real. Besides, it's Anoikis, the rules here ARE different, period.

  5. Ganks are about winning a fight before the engagement begins. Elite PvP is about winning a fight after the engagement begins. Ganks focus on scouting, logistics, and maneuver. Elite PvP is focused on individual piloting, skill, and situational awareness.

  6. A Gank is against someone that can't fight back in my book. As someone that flew in WH space for 6 months and much more extensively in sov 0.0 before that I can honestly say that anyone flying a pure PvE fit is not only doing it wrong but deserves to be destroyed.

    As you pointed out WH space is deadly space and there is no moment when PvP cannot happen. I have seen many occasions where even with the static rolled and no new connections made hostiles that have patiently been sitting in a system undetected attacked and destroyed ships that thought they were safe.

    Never NOT be PvP fit. You live in the space, you tolerate the risks, or you leave. It's a pretty simple concept that your targets last night failed to grasp, as if labeling it a Gank rather that a (self imposed) failure makes it better.

  7. Ganks only happen in highsec against neutral, non-aggressed parties.

  8. Depends on your definition of "gank" I guess.

  9. My father has a saying, from years of playing racquetball, "I never beat a well man." It seems everyone always has an excuse in Eve as to why they lost. Usually the excuse boils down to "fight wasn't fair, you attacked me wrong" or "fight wasn't fair, I wasn't ready." I'm not sure in whose fevered imagination killing a carrier in a WH would be considered a gank. But it doesn't surprise me that an excuse was offered.

    But I am pretty sure Rumeme was being ironic since Mabrick (I think) classifies killing PvE fit ships in hisec as "ganking". So in that case, of course killing a PvE carrier in a WH is ganking.

  10. Are we serious here? Yes it was a gank. A gank is when one party forces a fight upon another without the allowance of a choice. The rules don't change because you're in wh space and you don't need to kill an unarmed ship for it to be classified as one.

    This has been the case since the early 90s and pvp became a thing in MUDs.

  11. It wasn't a gank. The definition is "killing someone who has no chance to defend himself". That carrier could have won if it wouldn't be horrifit. I am beyond words to his fit and can't even imagine what was he thinking. The 2 armor reppers and the 2 Capacitor power relays needed to run it would serve much better as a damage control, and 2 more resist module.

  12. Gank.

    And I'm surprised you have to ask.

  13. It wasn't a gank. They may not have been prepared, but they were in combat ships and they did respond to the attack.

    If you'd jumped a hauler at a POCO, or a miner at an ore site, THAT would have been a gank.

    I lost a Tengu last night under similar circumstances, only I was the ship that didn't get away. I'm not happy about the loss. I'm not happy that all of our pilots online missed the hostiles getting into the system or the fact that one of our statics was open. But I didn't get ganked. Jumped, yes. Ganked, no.

  14. Well, the original meaning of gank in MMOs is that of "gang kill", i.e. killing someone by overwhelming numbers. In time, it transformed to the more general "killing someone at a substantial disadvantage", i.e. leaving him no chance (like unarmed ships).

    So, in the reference cited in the comment above, killing a possible drake bait: the intention isn't a gank (because if it's a bait, you expect the enemies to have a chance), but if it wasn't a bait, sure you ganked it anyhow.

    So, in my opinion, there are two sides: whether you intended a fight to be a gank (i.e. you tried to take a fight where the victim had no chance), and whether factually the victim had no chance regardless if you knew about it. So it's possible to gank someone without trying to gank, and not to gank someone altough trying a gank.

    So did you try to gank someone? Go for the lone carrier? Sounds like a gank to me, if it was reasonable to think you'd kill him before any help arrives (your story doesn't sound like that). Was it a gank? No, because they were back, before he was killed and if he hadn't self-destructed, who knows if he had been able to live.

  15. Its hard to be called a ruthless, soulless ganker if you view yourself as a carebear right? (No offense ;) ) No, it wasn´t a gank. Gank, just like blob, luck, or one of the myriad other words used to describe a one sided engagement, is just the looser stating, that you fought unfair.
    The funny thing: This wasn´t a onesided engagement. A fleet of subcaps vs. a group of capitals is hardly one sided. They were idiots. Enjoy your victory.

  16. It's a gank, since it was your gang killing a lone player. Doesn't mean it was an evil thing you did (did the eve-verse a service exploding that archon), just merely a term used.

    Perhaps not the best source for a definition, but unless someone has a better source:

  17. If I am mining in high sec and some catalysts warp in and start shooting me it's a gank. Why? Because it was one-sided? Without obvious risk to the ganker?
    If I am running happily running a forsaken hub deep in safe blue nullsec and I get ambushed and killed is it a gank?

    When I get killed running a site I consider myself ambushed, not ganked. Because I might have prevented my death had I been paying attention. Should I ever get suicide killed mining in high sec I would say I'd been ganked. Because high sec is NRDS while the rest of the universe runs on NBSI, so your response to a neut is different.

    For me a gank is something that only happens in high sec.
    Everywhere else you know undocking means consenting to pvp, even if not voluntarily. It's just semantics in any case.

  18. A gank is often what the losers say happened, that or blobbed (even if the 'blob' was a lesser number of ships than the losing side). People whine and it's best to ignore it.

    Those guys consented to PvP when they entered wormhole space. Being fit for PvP or not doesn't change that. Never start a fight you haven't already won. It's up to the defenders to surprise you and wrestle victory back from the jaws of defeat.

  19. Raziel, good one. Undocking is accepting the reality of non-consensual PvP in EvE... and putting up a POS and bringing ships and mods into Anoikis, is exactly the same thing.

  20. It started out as a gank, since you were in overwhelming numbers/power, but ended in a team fight, since he got backup.
    A "gank" is a "gang kill". Neither the fit of the ships, the consensuality, or the security of space doesn't matter.
    At least in my definition, which is pretty close to any MMO I played before. Except EVE, where everyone have totally different definitions for everything :-P.


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