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Wednesday, February 20, 2013

Carebear Dueling Advisory

Yesterday, within hours of the Retribution 1.1 patch, "L33T" PvPers were already using the dueling mechanism to trick unwary and naive carebears into "testing" a dueling bug. I found this on Reddit yesterday. EN24 picked it up soon after. Here is the chat log from that encounter so you know how it was perpetrated.

  1. ---------------------------------------------------------------
  3.   Channel ID:      -41103722
  4.   Channel Name:    Private Chat (alone)
  5.   Listener:        Karynak Idrissil
  6.   Session started: 2013.02.19 15:30:55
  7. ---------------------------------------------------------------
  9. [ 2013.02.19 15:30:59 ] Karynak Idrissil > o/
  10. [ 2013.02.19 15:31:09 ] tort-fk-off Maken > hello
  11. [ 2013.02.19 15:31:20 ] Karynak Idrissil > Hey, i wanted to know
  12. [ 2013.02.19 15:31:25 ] Karynak Idrissil > I have a bug with the new duel interface
  13. [ 2013.02.19 15:31:38 ] Karynak Idrissil > I have the duel window open at all times, and i can't reject it
  14. [ 2013.02.19 15:31:51 ] Karynak Idrissil > Relogging does nothin :/
  15. [ 2013.02.19 15:32:11 ] Karynak Idrissil > some guy told me re-dueling me from in-system might help
  16. [ 2013.02.19 15:32:27 ] Karynak Idrissil > But i dont want some guy to scam me into a duel then blap me
  17. [ 2013.02.19 15:32:36 ] Karynak Idrissil > SInce we're both mining, i'm pretty safe :)
  18. [ 2013.02.19 15:32:46 ] Karynak Idrissil > Could you duel me ?
  19. [ 2013.02.19 15:32:54 ] Karynak Idrissil > i really hope it will get that bug away :/
  20. [ 2013.02.19 15:33:19 ] tort-fk-off Maken > I hope it dont give it to me
  21. [ 2013.02.19 15:33:26 ] Karynak Idrissil > Dont think so
  22. [ 2013.02.19 15:33:47 ] Karynak Idrissil > right click me, pilot, invite to duel
  23. [ 2013.02.19 15:34:34 ] Karynak Idrissil > I can't believe that worked.
  24. [ 2013.02.19 15:35:36 ] Karynak Idrissil > Sorry mate, i had to.
  25. [ 2013.02.19 15:37:03 ] tort-fk-off Maken > your going to kill my ship
  26. [ 2013.02.19 15:38:19 ] Karynak Idrissil > Yep.
  27. [ 2013.02.19 15:38:21 ] Karynak Idrissil > Duel scam.
  28. [ 2013.02.19 15:39:08 ] tort-fk-off Maken > your a nice piece of work
  29. [ 2013.02.19 15:39:22 ] Karynak Idrissil > Just "asshole" will do
  30. [ 2013.02.19 15:40:17 ] tort-fk-off Maken > there is a 10 mil bounty on you now
  31. [ 2013.02.19 15:40:25 ] Karynak Idrissil > I suppose i deserve it.
  32. [ 2013.02.19 15:40:55 ] Karynak Idrissil > Oops, forgot to bring extra ammo.
  33. [ 2013.02.19 15:40:59 ] Karynak Idrissil > Good thing i have drones.
  34. [ 2013.02.19 15:42:33 ] tort-fk-off Maken > you will be got
  35. [ 2013.02.19 15:42:57 ] Karynak Idrissil > What?
  36. [ 2013.02.19 15:43:02 ] Karynak Idrissil > I'm mining veld.
  37. [ 2013.02.19 15:43:28 ] tort-fk-off Maken > your killing my ship
  38. [ 2013.02.19 15:43:47 ] Karynak Idrissil > I'm mining veld off your ship
  39. [ 2013.02.19 15:43:52 ] Karynak Idrissil > Pretty much the same
  40. [ 2013.02.19 15:44:05 ] Karynak Idrissil > gf :)

I seriously doubt this player really knows what a good fight is if he thinks a miner gank deserves a 'gf.' That aside, there is a very, very, VERY easy way for all the carebears reading to avoid this gank. DO THIS:

Go into Audio and Chat and select the Auto Reject Invitations under the dueling category. Now you cannot become an accidental victim of the "L33T" PvP players who are using scamming tactics to lure non-PvP players into fights because they can't win a real fight.

Fly Careful


  1. Uh, Mabrick, the chatlog indicates the scam victim was the one who issued the duel. Having auto-reject wouldn't have saved him.

    1. Yeah, that's the saddest part of the whole thing. Sadly I can only work within the bounds of the game mechanics. There is no easy switch for wisdom.

  2. "I seriously doubt this player really knows what a good fight is if he thinks a miner gank deserves a 'gf.' "

    No reason to be disrespectful just because you've been dishonourable.

    1. Saying "gf" in that situation is just salt in the wounds and you know it.

  3. although didn't he trick the guy into initiating the duel itself? Not sure the auto reject option would stop you from starting a duel.

  4. SO much bitterness in that post... I really hope you are trolling because the outcome of this story is clearly that the miner was dumb. This story is both entertaining and original, i see no reasons to believe that this guy "can't win a real fight".

    Chill bro

    1. It is not bitterness, it is a lack of respect. I have no respect for people who use game mechanics and trickery to gank people who are obviously not in a combat ship. It is not clever. It is puerile. I respect people like Rixx Javix, Jester and Space Noob. I can't imagine any of them resorting to this sort of scam to get a kill. Just today in fact, Rixx admitted that he even down ships into a comparable hull for PvP when he can. Go read his post, it's great! That I can respect. I do not respect the individual on Reddit - far from it. It cheapens the game when people do what he did. If there is bitterness it is because of that - EVE is so much more than cheap shots but some people fail to rise to the challenge of it, and instead perpetrate the same crap rampant in lesser games. I don't want EVE to become WOW. Do you? Then act like it.

    2. Call it white knight syndrome if you will but I agree with Mabrick. It's a lame trick thats has no value out side of a laugh and honestly he wasnt even remotely funny. "mining veld out of your hull" is a joke I've heard about as many times as "just testing your shield/armour/hull/pod".

      If this is what Karynak Idrissil does for kicks and giggles power to him, personally I'm filing this one away just above smart-bombing newb-stations.

  5. I am a nullsec player and i enjoy small gang warfare a lot. If there is the slightest of winning our gang will engage. That's what i enjoy, that's what pvp means to me.

    That being said i also have a scammer/awoxer alt in high sec. I don't scam/awox to "get kill" (i don't even have a kb for that char) nor for the isk (although it may be profitable). I mainly do it for the fun, for the endless tears coming from players that will never be able to hurt me back. I am clever ? No, they are dumb and fail to realize that even in a causual environment it's fairly easy to prevent someone from killing two barges, then an orca then stealing another orca.

    Eve is a harsh place, that's why it's not a themepark MMO, unlike WOW you can hurt players that make mistakes. Here the miner made a little mistake, he only suffered a little loss. Laugh about it or send him isk and a nice mail but the whole idea that a combat ship killing a non combat ship is somehow dishonorable... that is WOW. WOW offers arena and consensual pvp, in EVE if you make a mistake and put yourself in a situation where you can be ganked then learn from it.

  6. The “auto-reject” would not have changed anything here… The issue was not the ‘duel’ or the duel mechanic… the issue was as old as man… the new player ‘trusted’ the scammer and paid for it. The simple truth is there is no “auto-reject” radio button in the mind to stop people from trusting a stooped idea. Gankers, scammers, assholes and griefers are like the weather. You can rail at the gods, you can study and observe, but you can’t make immoral asshats into respectful people… simply aint gonna happen, ever.

    So, you get rained on and hopefully you learn to wear a raincoat. The issue for me here is not the scammer… it’s the cluelessness of the poor noob. And THAT can be changed. Your parents teach you to wear a raincoat when you are a child, yet noobs in EvE are born orphans... alone, cold and dripping pod goo… then the very first thing that happens is they are kicked out of the womb (undocked in their POD for the gods sake!) and told to go to waypoint “X” and get in this worthless ship… WTF CCP?

    This can be done better. If we want our little ones, the clueless noobs of New Eden to have even half a chance they must be TAUGHT ABOUT THE ASSHOLES OF EVE IN THE TUTORIALS… our kindergartens are so woefully inadequate… they’d be shutdown in the Real.

  7. Anon 11:11... That you openly state;

    "I mainly do it for the fun, for the endless tears coming from players that will never be able to hurt me back..." and

    " can hurt players..." and "...the whole idea that a combat ship killing a non combat ship is somehow dishonorable..."

    those statements say it all...

    (1) You recognize, and derive enjoyment from, 'hurting' another real person... Players are people, you know this and you cause them intentional emotional harm (tears) and you get emotional pleasure (fun) from this.

    So yes, you are immoral and dishonorable. But, take comfort in the fact that you are not alone... you are but one member in the guild of bullies and assholes in the world who act out, and fulfill, their immoral needs on the web, in anonymity... cause you can be a bully in EVE to living people who, in your own words, "...will never be able to hurt me back..."

    1. I'll defend that poster exactly this far: it's only a game. But I'm grateful that a game like EVE exists to keep more such people off the streets.

      Internet Fuckwad Theory, etc.

    2. Internet Fuckwad Theory has been recently changed from:
      Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad
      Normal Person - Consequences + Audience = Total Fuckwad

      Ergo solution is to buff consequences... Or so I'd have said if the post topic was widespread and successful enough to warrant change. The dueling system has only just been released; so think of it this way: Scams only work repeatedly until it becomes so widespread everyone knows about it. This is the consequence of scamming.

      This feature (dueling) fills almost ALL the voids left by can flipping, including the 1v1 scams.

  8. OK, we are fully in agreement, EVE Online is a game... with that understanding, please answer this...

    "What, in the context of EVE Online, is a game?" and

    "What reasoning, in such a 'game', makes it acceptable to willfully and intentionally cause emotional 'hurt' (his word, HE used twice) another REAL HUMAN player?"

    Convince me… really convince me that intentionally and willfully causing another living human being, someone who is not in any way interacting with or threatening you, that to cause them emotional stress and intentional 'harm' (the end product of 'hurting' someone) is acceptable and proper in ANY venue at ANY time ANYWHERE and I will seriously consider changing my mind...

    Please explain how you justify HURTING someone intentionally. I really do want to hear this and understand how you have determined that it is OK. While EvE is just a game, your personal ‘enjoyment’, the ‘thrill’ you feel and the ‘glee’ you have when you intentionally cause someone else emotional stress and anger, what you call “tears”, is just as real as your victims emotional reaction to YOUR willful act.

    All griefers/gankers/scammers say that carebears need to quit crying like babies and ‘HTFU’ that it’s only a game… but you then go on and on and on about how WONDERFUL it made YOU feel to make them feel that pain… how the be all of your game is to make someone so upset that they quit playing EvE… and that somehow that is GOOD for the game. Go on… justify that utter bullshit.

    Who has a problem here? The guy who has an emotional attachment to virtual stuff he spent many very REAL hours of his time virtually creating or the guy who has an emotional attachment to causing other people emotional stress and pain?

    I mean if they really ARE that dumb and stupid (IE mentally challenged), then you ARE just a bully picking on, as he said, people who "...will never be able to hurt me back..." and if not... then what?

    If they are not dumbass noobs, but reasonably intelligent young adults just like yourself who simply haven't played the "game" long enough to realize it's FULL of other real players who will lie and cheat and trick and scam and grief them every chance they get... then what are you?... just a guy playing a game? Still looks and sounds like a closet bully to me.

    1. Damn Tur, thats some of the best words i have seen for long regarding this neverending issue. I fully agree, ThumbsUp :-)

    2. Personaly, the very nature of EVE is one of the reasons I really do try to watch what I do as a player. The way EVE blurs the line between game-play and meta-play also blurs the line between "just a game" and "actually hurt someone". I cannot speak for others but honestly that's a line I don't want to accidentally wander across. If/when I cross that line I want that action to be deliberate and conscious.

      If you think I'm over-reacting then thats cool, I'll try to understand your position. Just know that if you are the sort of person who does this sort of thing for fun, I will be silently judging you and will think less of you as a person. I do not expect this to mean anything to you and frankly I don't care.

      ಠ_ಠ <- silently judging.

  9. You missed the best part: "SInce we're both mining, i'm pretty safe :)"

    He was using a Venture to kill that Retreiver and also the pod.

  10. Okay, i am the anonymous of both 11:11 and 10:13 comments, let me answer these comments because i think it's very interesting. English isn't my main language and i feel this put me in an awkward position here, the semantic is crucial in that debate.

    Frankly speaking yes i enjoy, in a particular way, 'hurting' others players. But that's not as simple as that, i will never insult them for instance or tell them they are idiots (not directly). I will never harass a single player over a long period of time. Actually many psychological studies have shown that people behave very differently in virtual interactions. It is very possible that someone can be a bully, insulting and cursing, spying, a thief in a video game and a perfectly nice person in the real world.

    The comment saying that "I'm grateful that a game like EVE exists to keep more such people off the streets." is both offensive and uneducated, these people are normal people and would not be bully in the real world. Well not necessarily.

    Let me come back to the situation please. I am not the kind of person that tells people to "HTFU", i would rather tell them to learn how to defend themselves. Again, nothing fancy here, i am not trying to be particularly clever and careful when i scam/awox. The fact that i am able to profit from these players shows that they merely need to improve, read evelopedia, read blogs like this one and so on. I would like to say that i did my first scam in eve after the week i started playing and that i am still a reasonably young player (less than one year old). I have never scammed a total newbie and i often help people in the help channel and such...

    When i say that i am "hurting" someone what i mean is that i am outplaying him or using game mechanics to my own good (it's often profitable). I am not trying to hurt the guy behind the keyboard in a similar way than people are bully in real world (fyi this is all about pixels on a screen) and frankly if someone has truly "an emotional attachment" to his retriever... well... i am not the one responsible for it. I am playing a game, i am not cheating, how can you conclude that i am, basically, a bad person irl again ? To me it's exactly like bluffing in poker. And if the guy that losses money in front of me feels pain for that he should stop playing because that's what poker is about.

    I could go on and on about your posts but really i won't discuss this in that comment, that's not the place to do so. Though i would appreciate that you don't use so much capital letters and italics... for a split second i thought it was something about a serious matter.

  11. Of course you don't do this kind of stuff in the Real... it's not allowed. Most of what you do ingame would be illegal in the Real. No one said you were a bully in RL, I said you were a bully ingame. In virtuality where it is NOT illegal or against the rules or the mechanics of the virtual world we share... however...

    "...(fyi this is all about pixels on a screen)..."
    "...for a split second i thought it was something about a serious matter."

    That, in a nutshell, says everything anyone needs hear in order to understand your choice of gameplay. You do not 'see' the other players as living people. They are 'pixels on a screen' to you. Oh I am sure you will argue that I am wrong, "Of course the players are real people but the ships and shit aren't real... is your point." That's not the objective point though. That's YOUR subjective perspective, and it allows you to distance yourself from the other players you hurt and cause harm to... it also allows you and all who grief in EvE to look down on them for being upset about 'just a game'.

    But the guy who spent months of his very real precious game time, his real lifetime, to gather/make/produce all the virtual ingame assets needed to make the virtual whatever it was that you virtually destroyed in 4 seconds with a cheap virtual ship... HE IS REAL, the time he spent IS REAL, and the harm YOU intentionally cased him is just as real to him, as if you were sitting there with him in his home. This is what you don't get... whether "you" believe it or not makes no difference to the player who is attacked.

    You have no empathy for the other guy, no understanding of the fact that there are people out there that you do cause actual and real upset and emotional hurt to. You care not because they are not 'real' to you. It is just a game to you.

    "I am not trying to hurt the guy behind the keyboard in a similar way than people are bully in real world..." But the guy behind the keyboard is in the real world... just not in the same room with you. That's the only difference.

    And the cure? The fix? We MUST make sure CCP knows we don't ever want them to make EvE into a Trammel... (look it up) but what we can do is push CCP to make the tutorials really TEACH about ganking and greifing and scams and just how dangerous a really FREE and OPEN FFA sandbox can be... especially when a serious segment of the playerbase has no empathy for the 'pixels' they play against.

    And FYI, I use CAPS and other punctuation as a way to not only say what I mean in words, but to add emotional impact and depth of feeling to my words.

    I don't hate you or want you gone from this fantastically wonderful game we share... I just want our children... the noobs of EvE, to have a fair start when they undock and you get them on your scan is all. =]

  12. Turameth.. really enjoyed your discourse, and I agree 100% with you. I worry that people who know no shame in their actions within Eve will let this antisocial behavior leak across into the real world over time.



Be civil, be responsible and most of all be kind. I will not tolerate poor form. There will be no James Hooks here. We are all better than that.