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Sunday, November 25, 2012

Requested: C3 PvE Ship Advise

Last night was a good night. The entire corporation was online. We cleaned hole - which is like cleaning house but sometimes more dangerous. We fleeted up and took out the four standard anomalies and the two radar sites that had popped up since the last cleaning.

The anomalies were business as usual. Our fleet was (mostly) active armor fit consisting of two standard battleships, a Navy Issue battleship and two Marauders. We sliced through the sleepers in The Oruze Construct site, the Solar Cell and the two Fortification Frontier Strongholds in short order. Then we turned our attention to the two radar sites.

The first radar site we ran is (arguably) the most dangerous C3 site. The Unsecured Frontier Database has a first and last wave that includes scramming frigates. They are true SOBs and the DPS of the other ships is formidable. My current Megathron does okay though it can't tank all the DPS for long and with a targeting range of only 96 kilometers has a little trouble with standoff. Our fleet commander, Strigon, did an excellent job keeping us at range through the first three waves but he had to advance to draw aggro putting him 30 kilometers closer in. That may not seem like much, but it can be a galaxy away when you pull full aggro and are scrammed to boot. Battleships are so sloooooooooow.

I'd like to extend my standoff and take full advantage of the Spike advanced ammo I always carry. However, I am not going to do that with a standard Megathron. I'd have to sacrifice either tank or give up being cap stable to do so and neither option fits our fleet doctrine. And before you go pointing out to me there are other fleet doctrines, like RR T3 cruisers, I have to say that's not my call. You are welcome to tell me all about it (because one day I may have my own fleet doctrine *wink*) but right now my ship needs to be cap stable and armor tanked.

So, to that end I need to make a decision. What ship will do what I want and also comply with fleet doctrine? I have, of course, gone to EveHQ Fitter and come up with a couple of choices that would work. Here's what I'm currently looking at (ignore utility highs as I swap them depending on mission:)
[Megathron Navy Issue]
7x 425mm Railgun II (Spike L)
Core Probe Launcher II (Sisters Core Scanner Probe) 
3x Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II (Targeting Range Script) 
Damage Control II
Large Armor Repairer II
3x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
2x Capacitor Power Relay II 
2x Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I 
[Statistics - Mabrick]
Effective HP: 109,195 (Eve: 100,667)
Tank Ability: 426.28 DPS
Damage Profile - <Omni-Damage> (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 12.50%, Ex: 56.25%, Ki: 47.50%, Th: 30.00%
Armor Resists - EM: 77.94%, Ex: 73.21%, Ki: 71.32%, Th: 71.32%
Capacitor (Stable at 32.46%)
Volley Damage: 1,536.80
DPS: 223.27
This ship is basically my current Sleeper PvE fit with a Cap Recharger II traded for a range boosting SEBO and the extra low slot of the Navy version used for a Cap Power Relay II to keep it cap stable (and neut resistant.) The DPS and active tank are the same as my current Megathron but the Navy version comes with 30% more EHP. That keeps it well within fleet doctrine. The range scripted SEBO lets me target out to a very, very nice 145 kilometers. That's nearly at optimal range for Spike! *LOL*
[Kronos] 
4x 425mm Railgun II (Spike L)
Core Probe Launcher II (Sisters Core Scanner Probe)
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II 
4x Cap Recharger II 
Damage Control II
2x Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Explosive Membrane II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Capacitor Power Relay II 
2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I 
[Statistics - Mabrick]
Effective HP: 80,396 (Eve: 73,127)
Tank Ability: 887.67 DPS
Damage Profile - <Omni-Damage> (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
Shield Resists - EM: 12.50%, Ex: 56.25%, Ki: 60.63%, Th: 38.75%
Armor Resists - EM: 74.44%, Ex: 71.26%, Ki: 75.08%, Th: 70.92%
Capacitor (Stable at 24.44%)
Volley Damage: 1,756.34
DPS: 255.16
This ship does not quite reach out as far as the Navy Issue fit above, but 108 kilometers is still a considerable increase over my current targeting range. This ship also has an EHP only slightly better than the standard Megathron but it has TWICE the active tank and does more DPS - and it's still neut resistant too. There is also the option of dropping the second large repper and doing the same SEBO Cap Power Relay fit as above. That gets me the range (174 km!) but strays a bit from the Krono's strengths. I've read you should always fit to a ship's strength in several places so believe it. If I was willing to drop a EANM II for the second large repper II it might be a good compromise, but I don't have the necessary PvE experience to say anything definitive about it. Part of our fleet doctrine is 70% or better resists but I'd fudge on that a bit for the range. *grin* It's considerably more expensive than the Navy Issue but this ship can solo smaller sites should I elect to accept the risk inherent in a WH with that decision.

What do you think? Which way would you go? Does the "compromise" Kronos fit make sense? Do you have a fit you think is better? Don't restrict yourself to Gallente ships either. I can fly all race's battleships (except Minmatar but I will correct that by the end of next weekend) so feel free to post any PvE battleship fit you've got in your archives. I really would like to see them for educational purposes if none other. Thanks!

Fly Careful

24 comments:

  1. I know that the doctorine is about Armor tanking, but this could be an interesting setup for PVE as well, see Jester's analysis for deeper info: http://jestertrek.blogspot.co.nz/2012/07/about-that-hun-reloaded-comp.html

    ReplyDelete
  2. For c3's I like flying the Drake.

    [Drake, Tank drake]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Ballistic Control System II
    Shield Power Relay II

    Large Shield Extender II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Shield Recharger II
    Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, NEW Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
    Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I

    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

    a fleet of 3 of these can clear combat anomalies easily though I tend to run 2 of these drakes with the 3rd one providing siege boosts in a drake. Each drake puts out about 400 dps out to 80k at all lvl V, and after retribution will only drop to about 370dps out to 60k. Either way this is more damage and more reliable damage output at range than the navy mega. As far as tank goes it'll tank 343 dps omni, but if you can have one drake providing shield resist siege ganglink bonuses you can get 450 dps omni. Since you're peers are in active tanked ships and are not running remote reps, I don't see how flying a passive drake would affect the fleet "doctrine" of self tanking ships. If the drake does get into trouble it aligns fast enough that you can warp out of a regular combat anomaly and will regenerate it's shields to 50% before you even come out of warp generally.

    If you're dead set on using a gallente marauder I'd consider something like this.

    [Kronos, New Setup 1]
    Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Armor Explosive Hardener II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
    Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

    Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
    Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I

    425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
    425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
    Small Tractor Beam II
    Salvager I
    Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I

    Large Nanobot Accelerator I
    Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I

    [Stats (level V skills)]
    Effective HP: 53,872
    Tank Ability: 502 DPS
    Damage Profile - (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
    Shield Resists - EM: 0%, Ex: 50%, Ki: 55%, Th: 30%
    Armor Resists - EM: 70.6%, Ex: 72.8%, Ki: 71.4%, Th: 66.6%
    Capacitor (Stable at 81%) as long as you run cap boosters
    Volley Damage: 3482
    DPS: 661


    With 1200m3 in cargo space a kronos has plenty of space to carry cap boosters which frees up a lot of your midslots and low slots. The MWD can help you burn in and out of range and the webs will help a lot with the sleeper frigates and cruisers that get on top of you. With the bonused webs you'll be able to hit cruisers orbiting you with your rail guns. The 3 magstabs in the lows will also mean you will do a lot more damage. You can honestly switch around the mids a good bit as well and consider dropping the MWD for a target painter or swapping a web for a SEBO for faster locking. And if you want some real fun replace your railguns with neutron blasters and null ammo and a web with a optimal range tracking computer. With null loaded you'll have a 30km range and be able to motor around blasting things.

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    Replies
    1. "With 1200m3 in cargo space"

      Now that's something I hadn't even thought about. It IS a lot of space to carry boosters, etc. Thanks!

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    2. Honestly I highly highly highly recommend anything but a battleship for c3 sleeper sites. In fact overall I find it's best to avoid using battleships in WH's for a large number of reasons. Overall your two fits you listed sacrifice a lot for cap stability and don't do much damage. The drake I listed and kara below both work just as well with a lot less skill training and isk required. Granted the radar site might be a bit difficult, but if you scale the drakes up in numbers and use logi drones on them they surprisingly tank very well. As someone who both runs c3 sites and kills people in c3 sites (and occaisionally get killed running c3 sites) a battleship is a big fat target especially when you get good enough performance out of battlecruisers.

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    3. I have a Drake. It's tank is a bit better than the battleship but doesn't meet our fleet doctrine but that's okay when it's just me. I find they are more susceptible to energy neutralizing as their protection relies on their cap more than the active armor tanks. I find that the Drake's DPS and engagement range are worse than my Megathron. I can target farther than the missiles can travel. That's okay when it's just me but it doesn't work in our fleet. In a perfect world we'd all fly RR Tengus but only three of us can fly them. I think we can all fly Drakes, and I think we all have Drakes, and we even pull them out from time to time to raid lower level holes. But I'm shopping for a battleship. Got any fits for one of those?

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    4. [Megathron Navy Issue, mabrick sleeper]
      Large Armor Repairer II
      Energized Explosive Membrane II
      Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
      Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
      Damage Control II
      Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
      Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
      Capacitor Power Relay II

      Cap Recharger II
      Cap Recharger II
      Cap Recharger II
      Cap Recharger II

      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
      Large Remote Armor Repair System II

      Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
      Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
      Large Nanobot Accelerator I

      This is how I'd fit your Navy Mega if I wanted one that could perma run the tank and not deal with cap boosters. If you notice it's similar to yours with a few key differences.
      First of all only 2 energized adaptive nano membranes instead of 3. I know you said there was a doctrine of having above 70% resists and I guess that 3rd nano is there to meet that criteria, but due to stacking penalties you get more bang for your buck with a damage mod.

      Second for rigs, using 2/1 split of auxillary nano pumps to nanobot accelerators instead of the 1/2 split you use will rep a little less, but be much more cap stable. Since the accelerators make your armor repper cycle faster it eats more cap. This lets me use less capacitor mods and still be stable.

      Third difference is damage. Magstab Magstab Magstab. With the open low slots from the previous two differences in fitting decision, it allows me to increase the dps of the ship. With spike you will do 343 dps from the guns alone assuming perfect skills. Though honestly antimatter should have enough range for most targets as it can do about 500 dps with a 30k optimal, and then degrade down to 270 dps at 60k.

      Using your stats table (is that auto generated from the fitting program you use?) it looks like this

      [Statistics - Level V skills)
      Effective HP: 96,049
      Tank Ability: 372 DPS
      Damage Profile - (EM: 25.00%, Ex: 25.00%, Ki: 25.00%, Th: 25.00%)
      Shield Resists - EM: 12.50%, Ex: 56.25%, Ki: 47.50%, Th: 30.00%
      Armor Resists - EM: 75.1%, Ex: 72.7%, Ki: 67.6%, Th: 67.6%
      Capacitor (Stable at 42.%)
      Volley Damage: 1922 (spike) 2882 (antimatter)
      DPS: 343 (spike) 515 (antimatter)

      Other things to note, carry a flight of ecm drones for unwanted visitors and a flight of medium armor rep drones. 10-20 medium rep drones add a significant amount of tank if anyone gets in trouble and the ship is cap stable if only run either the remote armor repper or the local repper but not both. Also like the kronos fit you can consider using a capbooster to free up your midslots for utility.

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    5. OK, I gotta jump in here... if I may, "…highly highly highly recommend anything but a battleship for c3 sleeper sites." uh... really? May one inquire as to why? Pls don't get me wrong, I have a duck in th hole... learned up on Drakes afore I stepped foot in my first C1... and yes, in many ways she is the 'Queen of Holes' but that is based primarily on her amazing tank, but not on her decent but not stunning DPS, which Kara speaks to, "...its slow tho..." (and that is soon to take a bit of a nerf as we all know...)

      If you are this "Archare" [http://www.my-eve.com/character/Archare] then you do seem to have some experience in holes which I respect, and with a goodly number of kills in a variety of holes, plus Noctis kills... then you will understand this...

      Part of our fleet doctrine is to use a Kronos with its 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, running T2 tractors this is really some bonus. In order to safeguard our Noctii and the Lewt & Slavage from each site, while we run a site the Kronos tractors and loots everything into a “AI’s Patented Wreckball” (TM), once all Sleepers are down we keep ALL DPS ships on grid, warp in a dual SeBo (resolution) & x8 Salver II fit Noctis and she is able to nom nom the wrecks in a stunningly short time span then we fleet warp out.

      Reducing the risk to the Noctis, when L&S is the ONLY way to make bank in holes is simply the smartest and most practical possible strategy.

      Plus, I do not know about your experience or skills, but I have almost 2 years experience living full time in holes and the sites we took down last night would have taken one helluva lot longer than they did with our current fleet. And every second spent outside the POS FF in a non-cloaky ship in holes increases the risk of a gank etc. You should know that if the C3/stat Hi I show for you is your homehole...

      No, the duck is a goodly ship and I have a soft spot for em in my heart... and is a great fallback in case of the loss of my main Sleeper ships, or for raiding C2s and down, but no... it is not the go to ship for Sleepers in C3’s and up. IMHO if you can tank as well or better, and we do, and put more DPS on target at greater range, and carry and deploy more drones in something else and thereby take down the sites faster, then that's what we'll do.

      I know the T3's can be setup for PvE and do amazing work, but ATM ours are PvP fit for hole defense... =]

      Delete
    6. Huh.. cool intel site, I'll prolly have to add this to my list. :) but yes that is who I am, though that WH listed is not the one I live in. Now to address your questions....

      First Drake vs Battleships. This is mainly a cost effectiveness arguement. Basically they are cheap as hell to lose, and with 3 drakes I can clear about 8 combat anomalies in an hour. My 3 drakes total dps is about 1000dps and they can all tank the site just fine. At current eve prices each hull is worth ~75 million a pop. If my fleet gets jumped at most I'm out 225 mil which as you should know is pocket change for a c3 site. Now lets take 3 properly fit Battleships. They'll do about 1500-2000 dps, however double the damage does not mean double the completion time. The lower scan resolution of battleships, coupled with spawn waves means that there'll times when you have to wait to relock. This coupled with slower align/travel times means you'll still be able to do only a few more sites per hour. However the risk in hulls are now ~180 mil per t1 BS or about 540 mil for all 3, and much much more if you're in a faction BS or maurader. From a performance and efficiency standpoint what you gain versus what you risk isn't worth it in my opinion. Roaming WH gangs in lower class WH's general fly with a heavy interdictor, scanning/tackle cov ops and t3's (both cloaky and non cloaky). We'll roll a c3-4 connection and open up and peek inside to see if anyone is in there to surprise and the large Battleships without any support are just easy kills to rack up. If a fleet lands on you most likely most battleships will not align out in time whereas drakes will have a better chance of escape.

      Now as far as you said about the longer you spend outside a pos in a non cloaky increases the chance of a gank is very true. However there is some logic and game theory that you need to think about. Generally what I do is clear a bunch of combat anoms, and then go back and salvage them afterwards. The big thing about this is to make the sites despawn. By doing this as long as you're dscaning while salvaging there's only 2 reasons your noctis can get jumped.
      1. Someone bookmarked all the sites in your WH before you started running and logged off. (highly unlikely)
      2. Someone in a cloaky ship jumped in and followed you running sites and started observing you and saving your sites (most likely)
      In the second case while salvaging the person hunting your noctis down generally will kill you either the first chance it gets to ensure a kill (bird in hand worth 2 in the bush) or if they know you are salvaging lie waiting in the last site you salvage to gank you when your cargohold is full of loot. If you're doing home sites the simple solution is to drop off loot between sites which again lowers the risk of exposure. Aside from this anything short of a hictor wouldn't stop me from attempting a gank. If you noticed a few of my noctis kills, what isn't shown is that in fact some of those were guarded by the pve ships on grid. If you don't have points to hold down a target a Talos can drop in and 2 shot a noctis easily. Also a stealth bomber can quickly dispatch of a noctis and escape. In the case of the talos you might lock it in your battleships but the noctis will be long dead, and the Talos will be running away quickly. Same with a stealth bomber.

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    7. Good answer! LOL

      OK on the cost effectiveness issue, no issue, agree completely. But I don’t play my game based on ISK… I play the game and fly the ships I want to and enjoy flying, otherwise why have them? When I log on EvE, I leave the “we can’t afford that” arguments for my RL. We believe the DPS, bonuses etc. we gain is worth it… We have lost ships to gank gangs, yes… but we can also afford to lose them with the combination of PLEXing and C3 ISK… especially as we would all much rather drive a Porche than a VW bug… and in EvE I CAN afford to unlike RL where I struggle to keep my Minmatar made Jeep TJ running! LOL.

      And I am now going to start timing our site ops to see exactly how long it actually does take us to clear sites in the fleet we currently run, out of sheer curiosity… I used to fly a Duck allatime in the C2 we used to live in… and in fleet I was always the lowest DPS and solo it took for effin EVER to down a site… I know we are clearing them far faster, especially with the group we have incorp now… everyone listens and knows their jobs in fleet, command response is excellent, mistakes are few and esprit is high. We were blitzing sites in, to my two years of experienced eyes, amazingly quick times.

      As for gank gangs… yes, if there’s a bubble we got trubble… but we generally fight pre-aligned and ready to GTFO and we always hit back. Two of our guys got jumped a while back and got bubbled and DIAF with honor… but they took a ‘Cane with em. Was it a fair fight? Hell NO! Of course not, it’s EVE and W-space! But you always go down kicking them in the crotch and laughing!

      And yes, I agree letting the sites despawn and then the nom noming can be safer… but it simply aint as much FUN as flying in fleet with our corpmates. The overall difference here may be that we treat it a bit more as a game, and save RL level financial concerns and risk worries for RL… we just ENJOY EvE.

      Delete
  3. Drake. As much as you might hate it and as much as it might not fit. Its cheap, its easy, it works.

    [Drake, pve]
    Ballistic Control System II
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
    Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

    Large Shield Extender II
    Large Shield Extender II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
    Shield Recharger II
    Shield Recharger II

    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
    [empty high slot]

    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
    Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
    Hobgoblin I x5

    With my mediocre skills this gives me:
    590dps tank for 28mins, overheated invuls give 690dps omni (for that last wave)
    Damage is 284dps+55drones @61km (yes, i know my skills are bad) ( i dont get why people dont use furys, your sig is as big as a barn door-BS anyway with a shield drake :P)

    This particular site is nasty tho, you cant really tank it proper and shouldn't. (maybe rr tengus can...)
    A dps tank is the best defense in that case in my opinion. I wouldnt try that site with only a small fleet of 3-4 bcs tho.

    I have run all basic c3 sites solo in that fit successfully. The only problem really are neuts. So you have to watch the cap and sometimes its warp offski time :) Its slow tho.

    Maybe another idea for you guys, why not RR each other in the fleet? And another thing, i bet you a cheapfit t3 works better and is less isk then the navy mega.

    And a tip, the meta4 beta reactor thingmes (either shield or cap) are better/cheaper/easier to fit then t2

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  4. Couple of things:

    A Kronos can fit anything up to two energy transfers plus a RR. Can be used to support another Kronos (same set up) in a chain AND another ship. It's got a huge power grid atm, and reasonable CPU. Good practice for higher class WH.

    Command ship or T3 (as above). They'll make a HUGE difference to local tanks of all ships. Low risk too at present. Amarr is best for obvious reasons, but the more important components are the armor warfare links plus implant. In other words, any T3 will do.

    Cap booster have been mentioned as well, and a darned good idea for freeing up slots. Easy and cheap to manufacture.

    Lastly, the Navy Meg has a darned good drone bay. A couple of flights of lights plus a set of Warden IIs will give you an awful lot of flexibility.

    If you drop in one optimal range drone module, Wardens will do good reliable damage out to targeting range. The limiting factor is actually your drone control range....

    Otherwise, if you're adamant about gun skills and particularly range, the Naga is worth a look (shield skills though).

    Combination of some of those suggestions likely to have a big impact. All IMHO. Apologies if covering same old ground. Usual disclaimers apply.

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    Replies
    1. Have you been reading HBHI's internal memos? Ohs nos, a spai! *LOL* Yeah, we armor tank ATM because of command bonuses. RR on the Kronos is another excellent idea. Hadn't thought about manufacturing the damn boosters. Resupply is the biggest distractor to using them in a hole and that would certainly make them viable. Almost a duh now that I think about it. Thanks!

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    2. Spai... ha! Merely logic (and a little experience):P

      Actually, I've been very tempted to try the WH life on a more serious basis. Tried (and failed) to convince others to come into one ages ago. A good one too. Sat in the darned thing for a couple of weeks too until the skill queue started looking a bit bare and then gave it up.

      Trouble is that it's not really for the casual player, and there is lots of RL stuff going on right atm.

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    3. Oh and crap, I fergot to add to my above tl:dr comment...

      Mab, you may want to consider the Kronos (or one of the other Marauders) for another reason... not only would you be puttin decent damn damn on the Sleepers but you could assist AI in his Wreckball making activities and we KNOW you like being involved in the ISK making aspects of W-space.

      If you and AI are tractoring and looting jointly and we get jumped and lose one of you, then only half the loot is lost... I am skilling up for the Vargur myself. It's something to consider. =]

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  5. I have to say I think you guys may be over complicating C3 sleeper running (based on earlier tales of loosing ships in the radar site and what not). We run a fair amount of c3 and the only time it gets exiting is if something blips on d-scan

    As suggested above drakes work well, passive recharge drake can tank the c3 sites, but should be fit to only just tank it, remember apart from the one radar (and possibly one of the mags?) there are no sleeper points, so the sleeper primary can simply warp out if he gets in trouble on the final waves. Main advantage is that the BCs are dirt cheap when you have bad luck and get ganked. Maybe thats not a big risk for you as you seem to mostly be running at home.
    For the radar with point, just make sure everyone is on the ball and killing the scram frigs ASAP when they spawn, and that whoever gets aggro aligns, you will be fine.

    IMO the tengu is currently the best c3 runner, a local rep tengu can tank anything in the C3 and has excellent applied dps.

    That said, as your corp seems set on armor battleships, I would do the following if I were you. Run one onieros and the rest battleships. Have the battleships use rep drones and keep them on the oni. You can put RR in the spare high on the battleships for emergencies but drones should be enough (only tested it once though). The good thing about this is that the battleships don't need to fit for cap stability running repairers and massive local tank, allowing them to focus on high dps.


    Also wanted to comment on the fact that you seem to be going into the sites at range. I would suggest the opposite, the fact that the c3 sleepers typically tend to keep range at ~20 allows you to use short range high dps weapons (scorch geddon and null mega with a few tracking computers...).

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  6. Some random thoughts:

    - you want advice on designing a ship that fits within your doctrine but you don't tell us much about the doctrine. We need to know if it's not secret in order to give you good advice.

    - if your setup is reasonably small it's probably best to brainstorm together. Either timetable a shipfit meeting or at least collar your FC for a while to discuss ideas.

    - my main advice is enough tank to not die then everything on damage. How you manage tanking is a fleet issue, sounds like RR Marauders would be a great way to go (Marauders basically squeeze the damage of 8 guns into 4 slots then leave you 3 utility highs).

    - your loot maneuvring is a very cool tactic that genuinely impresses me

    - max armour tank + dps is something like repper (either yours or someone else's), 2 EANMs, then damage upgrades in the rest of the lows and cap in the mids.

    All told something like:

    [Kronos, Ratter]
    Damage Control II
    Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

    Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II
    Cap Recharger II

    Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
    Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
    Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
    Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
    Large Remote Armor Repair System II
    Large Remote Armor Repair System II
    Small Tractor Beam II

    Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
    Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


    Ogre II x3


    Dps of this fit is 1591 before implants drugs and leadership bonuses, demands quite an active playstyle but the need to get close for blasters helps the drones as it cuts down travel time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Stabs, as usual your is one of the best comments here... so many Duck Duck Duck people responding to a general can I get some ideas on BS fits query... I get it! We have Ducks, we PREFER BSes... get over it.

      Anyhoo, you should SEE how fast the Noctis burns through a wreckball!!

      I fire up both Sebos and warp to '0' of the Kronos;
      > on landing I align to POS & kill speed while;
      > I target 6 wrecks in OV farthest to closest;
      FC calls "Pull drones, fleet align to POS"
      > as targeting completes I select and tap F1 thru F6;
      (by F6 they have started to pop so I immediately);
      > continue to target farthest to closest;
      > tap F-whatever thru F-whatever;
      > repeat until last 4 wrecks are under salvage;(double up salvagers as count goes under 6);
      > I align to POS;
      (when last wreck pops I am almost always at speed)
      > I call "At Speed";
      FC initiates Fleet warp...

      The Noctis has always been a busy ship to run, but THIS is method is simply stunning. =]

      I am an L5 Salvager with both the Poteque 'Prospector' Salvaging SV-905 and the Poteque 'Prospector' Environmental Analysis EY-1005 implants and run all T2 salvers, the only thing I don't have on my Noctii are the T2 Salvage Tackle Rigs, I have T1s.

      Delete
  7. What reason do you have for running with armor battleships? Doing it because yall have always done it is a poor reason. Doing it because people can't fly a drake, which takes less than a month of training if you have no shield and no caldari skills, is a poor reason.

    2-4 drakes will destroy c3 sleepers. They have good range and can move fast, compared to battleships. If you're concerned about how fast you can run the sites you can either train to tengus, 6 tengus will do the sites faster than 6 marauders at less cost, or bling your drakes out a bit. A 200m isk drake will let you destroy the sites while at the same time still cost less than a fifth of the Kronos hull.

    If you're irrationally attached to battleships and you're flying a Kronos you need a web. Not for the sleepers, but so that on the day you get jumped by cloaky t3's you can web one and kill it. Have 1-2 people fit webs, 1-2 people fit points. You pick one of the people ganking you and kill them.

    Seriously though, stop flying armor battleships for sleepers. You're throwing tons of isk at a problem that can be solved by flying a t1 battlecruiser.

    Keep the marauders in the hole though, a couple of kronos will make home defense incredibly easy provided you bring enough eccm.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. In reverse order, sort of:

      1. We can all fly Drakes and do on occasion. That's not the issue. I don't know why all the Drake fans have come out of the woodwork here. I said nothing about disdaining Drakes. I use mine quite often eliminating Sleepers from Ladar and Grav sites solo. In fact, if you look back through my archives (April 2011) you'll find a post titled Assuaging Drake Decisions where I listed my reasons for buying a Drake before I bought a Myrmidon (and I still don't own a Myrmidon.) So please, if you are reading this and have not yet commented, enough with the Drake plugs. I get it. I don't disagree with it. But this post isn't about Drakes. It's about armor tanked battleships thank you very much.

      2. And as for those, we fly them because our corp fleet commander says to. I don't need any other reason than that. At least he isn't dictating the fit like some null corps/alliances do.

      3. The ISK is mine to spend as I wish. It's not irrational to buy the ship you want. I am positive you do it all the time. Let's just stop using disparaging language when it isn't what you'd do with the ISK. It's not your ISK. If I want to spend my ISK on a Kronos or a Navy Megathron it's no skin off your back. Maybe I just like the way the hull looks, eh?

      Here's a funny thought. What if Jester posted a Kronos as his fit of the week (FotW) and everyone just said, "Hey Jester, you should have posted a Drake!"

      Delete
    2. 3 solid Eve reasons for BS over Drake:

      1) Damage. Drake is sub-500, BS can be triple that. Perfect Tengu is close to 700 which is still comparatively weak.

      2) Time on field. The longer you're on the field the greater the chance to be discovered, for enemies to get organised and reinforced and then for them to come kill you.

      3) Heavy Missile nerf. Even if it doesn't rip the heart out of high-end Drake PvE it's simply not fun to fly a ship that gets nerfed. It feels gimped because you keep remembering how it used to be.

      Delete
  8. STABS!!! As always! Points #1 #2 & #3 quoted for truth!! =]

    ReplyDelete
  9. DUCK!
    Hm i really just fly it because it is the easiest option for me overall. I start to fly a t3 more now since i finally skilled into it. May i ask how you manage mass problems?

    I dont know much about fitting bs, so i did give the advise i could give and know about :P

    ReplyDelete
  10. It irks me when people tell me to fly a drake. That thing is ugly as sin and the Kronos/Mega is beautiful. (and about to become more beautiful).

    [Kronos, PvE]
    Core B-Type Large Armor Repairer
    Damage Control II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
    Armor Explosive Hardener II
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
    Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer

    Gist B-Type 100MN MicroWarpdrive
    Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
    Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
    Tracking Computer II

    Small Tractor Beam I
    Small Tractor Beam I
    Small Tractor Beam I
    425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
    425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
    425mm Railgun II, Javelin L
    425mm Railgun II, Javelin L

    Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
    Large Nanobot Accelerator I


    Valkyrie II x5
    Hammerhead II x5


    This is a fit if you are willing to risk the ISK. It's fun to fly and does pretty awesome damage. The tracking computer, web bonus, & tracking bonus to Javelin let you hit about anything. The bonus to repair amount and the deadspace repper give me almost 600 ehp/s. DPS w/o drones is just shy of 700.

    I only use my Kronos for hi sec missions right now (so I'm not 'risking' much). Use that cargo capacity for cap boosters and fill those mids and lows with damage/tank mods. And think about dropping the ISK for a Core-B repper. (I personally use a Core-A and that tank is amazing)

    ReplyDelete

Be civil, be responsible and most of all be kind. I will not tolerate poor form. There will be no James Hooks here. We are all better than that.