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Wednesday, August 22, 2012

Initial PI setup in a WH

My initial goal with PI while in the hole is to minimize risk to my ships while getting my ISK earning started quickly. That means I want minimal ship runs. Minimal runs to me means not having to move resources from one planet to another. There are no P4 products where this is possible. However, there are a few P3 products that you can produce on a single planet. They can make you as much ISK as a P4 product, if diligently handled.

So why P3 and not P4 items? Well, it has to do with cargo hauling capacity. My Viator has 3750m3 in its cargo hold without cargo expanders. I use inertia stabs to make the Viator quick as possible - it's all about risk reduction don't you know. A single P4 product takes 100m3. A single P3 item takes 6m3. I can haul a lot more P3 than P4 items. They may sell for less, but I get a lot more out with every run. That makes the overall profit nearly the same when you take into account the shorter amount of time spent making them. Again, no planet to planet transfers and one less production step means less time in process. Never forget time is money.

First, I needed to know what I could actually produce on the planets in the hole. You can ID these resources using Eve Planets. Click on a single planet and then click on "Push." When the site refreshes, it will tell you what products you can produce with the planets selected. By selecting only one planet you see what it alone can produce.

As for which planets to choose, I choose the more rare planets because less people produce those things. Then I choose the ones with the smaller diameters because link costs suck. If you have a choice of two gas giants and one is 50,000 km in diameter and the other three times that, why pick the one that will triple your link costs? If you don't want to log into Eve to see your planetary diameters, you can always use DotLan but it requires several clicks to get where you want to go. I like Eve Eye. It has a more streamlined interface for my purposes and provides other very interesting information with links to Evelopedia, Eve Survival and other really useful sites.

Of course, it was not enough to just make these decisions and not know what the potential profit would be. Before investing in any venture you should know how your investment cost stack up against potential profit. My initial setup is not designed to maximize profit in the traditional sense: maximum production of most valuable commodities. It is designed to minimize risk. That will initially preserve profits as I learn how to live in my new home. Ship replacement costs could easily eat up any extra profit I make going the more traditional route. I am very cognizant of that fact and you should be as well if you've never lived in a WH.

What I needed next was a spread sheet - of course. The spreadsheet would tell me how profitable these P3 products might be. To create the spread sheet I pulled that static data for PI products from the EveHQ database (for now.) There is also the option (for now) to use the CCP provided official database. _noise_ over on The Phoenix Diaries did a great piece last Sunday on how to set this up. When you marry this up with Blake's wealth of knowledge over on K162 you can do just about anything. Unfortunately I have to say "for now" because CCP, in their infinite bone-headedness (and I say that with extreme affection,) are dumping the SQL database download for an all text yaml file system and we'll all have to do this all over again. ARRRRGGG!

Anyway, what I finally ended up with was a nice table that looked like this.
From here you can identify which P3 products are the one planet products and calculate your potential profit. For example, if I ran six planets and could make one run a day hauling out one of the top six P3 products each day, my weekly potential profit is 161,463,365.00 ISK per week. If I made 24 wetware mainframes a day for those six days, I could make 178,045,433.28 ISK (at current prices as of writing this) and I would need to make four runs to get it all out. That is two less runs than the P3 plan but I'd have to make a lot more runs between planets than that to get those 144 Wetware Mainframes done. Believe me, I know. I did that in high-sec - where I was (mostly) safe.

But understand, this is all just INITIALLY. I can't stress that enough. There are far more profitable PI setups in our hole. They would require multiple planetary transfers to maintain however. When I am more sure of WH life, I will no doubt reconfigure my planets and attempt to maximize my profit. When I do, I will be sure to let all of you know.

Fly carefully.


  1. I dunno mab, I am running 6 Alts in my hole with t1 haulers, really losing a hauler or a pod should t effect the. Ottom line when you are talking about clearing a few bil a month between all of the toons. I am using 2 toons completly for manufacturing and am using the rest to gather t2 inputs. I am manufacturing, and selling Amarr fuel blocks, nanite repair paste, nano computers , and rocket fuel. I have to import some t2 from empire that the local planets do not produce, I keep my feeder stocks at around 100k units, if they fall below that I import from empire. I only collect from the planets once a week, as it takes about 2 hours to do a full collection run. Daily I refresh my extractors on all toons takes about 15 min. And reapply all factory planets , takes about a half hour. Then every few days I submit my. A note repair paste job, and import my empire commodities and ice products about once a week. I also run a weekly fuel block job. Essentially my monthly fuel costs about 120m for the ice products as all the rest is harvested from the local planets.

    Weekly we will run all the anoms and profession sites, we do these in a closed hole with combat probes out. We will not run a site or go to a customs office until we have forcibly closed all wormholes in the system daily. No members are allowed to run a site with an open hole...
    The only ships we have lost in the hole so far were 2 geddons where we were ambushed while closing a hole. But in the big picture of things, that is just the cost of doing business


    1. Please see the work "initial" in the above post. It's awesome that you have six (6) alts to make your own little indy corp in a hole. I don't and most other people don't either. This P3 setup is a good place to start for those just getting their feet wet in a hole who have one toon to get everything done. It also works for those who would rather rat and PvP than run a ton of PI. As I pointed out more than once, it is not the most profitable and is not my long term plan. I can do this first because my corp mates are handling the fuel products already. I just wanted something any PI noob could do.

  2. Don't get me wrong, I understand what you are saying, pi is a pain to get set up initially, I started with setting up one product and didn't get this whole operation set up for over 2 months in this hole, while training Alts and what not. As well, with shooting all of the customs offices and replacing them with corp customs offices. Pi isn't something done lightly, there is alot of clicking to just set up on comodity.

    What I wanted to imply is that you shouldn't be worrying about losing a t1 hauler. You can always put the product back I to the customs office if someone uncloaked and starts targeting you before your hauler dies. I can't see the use in making all the trips with a cloaky hauler as you are describing.

    And i only am trying to make some suggestions, not really sure where the sarcasm is coming from


    1. Sorry, the snark was not intended. That's what I get for replying during work but that's a poor excuse. Please accept my apology. I appreciate the suggestions and I will be taking them into consideration as I get more accustomed to WH life. Now I just need to get a T1 hauler into the hole...

      So please tell me what it took to shoot down the Interbus POCOs in your system. More than half the planets in our WH still have them and I want them dead.

  3. No problem mate, I wasnt sure if I was reading into it or not, we used 3 geddons and 3 oracles and a proteus, they took us approximatly an hour a piece, we were putting out about 800 dps on the oracles and 1k dps on the geddons with t2 sentries, and 1k dps on the proteus.

    I cannot state how important it is to have your hole closed and combat probes out when using a fleet such as this in a wh, since we were fit for cap stability and gank, we would have died in a fire to any dedicated pvp fleet.

    I have seen the pocos taken down with a dozen stealth bombers, in less time but that depends on having the numbers. They have about 10m shield hp and I think 5m armor and 2m structure if I remember correctly.

    oddly enough there is one planet that we put a poco at that no one uses gah.. lol

    Now, I know you are in a class 3 like myself, I highly recomend having 3 geddons fitted with 100mn ab and a plate for closing wormholes, if you can fly them, or any 3 tier 1 battleships. The reason I say this is it makes closing holes easy. On these ships with the AB turned on they have a mass of 160m tonns. so 3 ships out and 3 ships in with the AB' turned on is will roughly close a 1Billion mass hole, those are most of the x702's coming into you from HS.

    2 trips to close most 2b mass holes, and 3 trips to close your static.

    Sometimes you need to run a heavy dictor out and in, depending how the hole acts but you get used to picking those things out after you get stuck outside the hole a few times lol.


  4. I very much agree with wormhole denizen about the hauling. I haul in an Itty V with cargo rigs and low slots and cans. Almost 44k m3. So I take one trip to your Viator's twelve.

    Solving the equation for risk you have a safer ship (but not 100% safe, good pvpers will have an outside chance of decloaking you in a entry trap or drag bubble can combo. However if your risk is 1/20th of mine you have to roll those dice twelve times to my one plus you lose an expensive T2 ship if it goes wrong, I just lose a T1 hauler.

    But the key element is time. If loading, warping from POS to hole, jumping, warping to station, unloading, undocking, warping to hole, jumping, warping to POS takes 5 minutes that means you take an hour to move the volume I move in 5 minutes.

    I do have transport ships on one alt but I only use them if I run out of fuel and only have a nullsec exit. Then I run him to Jita, pick up some fuel and run back through the gate camps. Even then I have cargo mods in lows and rigs.

    1. Off the bat, let me say that anyone reading this can take as much risk as you want. Isn't this year's catch phrase more ISK for more risk? I just want folks to know that you can still make plenty of profit though you minimize the risk. In fact, this whole discussion sounds like the fully tanked mining barge versus the cargo optimized mining barge of old discussions. It's all about one's perceived risk of being ganked and how much one is willing to lose from it.

      For me, this isn't just about the value of the cargo, it's about the value of the time spend accumulating it. Your Itty V can haul 44K. That's roughly 12 times my haul. That's 12 times the work in one basket. Your time is not free nor is it ever recoverable. If you lose that much time in one haul, you have to repeat the work it took to accumulate the product. You've lost that much time towards your home's upkeep - or other more fun endeavors.

      Lastly, we have a low-sec static. There is no way I'm flying an uncloaked T1 transport through low-sec without a scout. That's like wearing a gank me sign. Having a scout is not always possible. Nor is it fair to my corp mates to expect them to fly scout for me every time (though I know they would if I asked.) That's just the way I am. I'm risk adverse and I like being self reliant. If that means I give up cargo space to be that way, I'm good with that. YMMV and probably does.

    2. Fair enough.

      I think some of it is also about scale. I have 7 PI alts in my hole making P2s. I think last time I hauled it took me 5-6 trips. 70 trips would have been too much (and the exit wouldn't have lasted that long).

      As for uncloaked I always cloak and tank my T1 haulers. I've crept out of many a gate camp at 12 m/s and survived suicide gank attempts. You can add a lot of survivability to a T1 Hauler although I agree that they're no where near as safe as a T2 cloaky hauler.

    3. Seven? Seven! Damn, WH Denizen has six. I feel like a rank amateur. *wry smile*

  5. What two planets are used for Biotech research reports?

    1. Go to this web site: Select Biotech research Reports under Schemas. The table on the left will show the planets from which you can obtain the needed resources. You can actually make the Biotech Research Reports using any advanced facility on any planet.

      You can produce Biotech Research Reports with just an Ocean and Lava planet.

    2. Now all I need is a wormhole corp. I suppose a C3 with a high sec static would be awesome. I would also like to see if reactions are worthwhile. Industry has always interested me in EvE, just never had the ISK to invest - until now.


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