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Tuesday, July 10, 2012

The Best Reply Ever - Seriously.

I am going to do something I've not done before. I'm going to draw attention to one of the best replies I've ever read - anywhere. It's from my recently syndicated post on Eve News24 (and yes, I know it was formatted for crap - sorry R, won't happen again.)

Matt E flies for TEST. What he has to say about that is important. We all get swept up in the politics of the roles we assume (yes, I act out a role- that's what ROLE PLAY is,)  but we must never forget what is truly important: having fun. We all need to take a deep breath, remind ourselves this is a game, and understand the guy in the other ship isn't a real enemy - s/he is just a human being trying to have some fun.

Here are Matt's insightful comments on just how that's done for him, in its entirety and edited only for spelling (link here.)
"The PVP side in EVE isn't as cut and dried as you make it seem. Nor are the reasons that people fight. While there are many EVE corps out there that are all about the kill board stats, TEST, Goons and the CFC in general aren't among them. In fact, if you care even a little bit about your kill board, I would suggest staying as far from the CFC as you can possibly get. To the point of perhaps playing a different game. It is that much of a detriment for you if you are facing off against any entity inside the CFC. If you care about KB stats, every loss is a moral blow where to the CFC a loss is just another happy pilot who got to get into some pew pew! They give no fucks about their KB Stats. Dotlan and the slope are the only stats that matter.
One thing that you seem to be missing is that TEST views kill board warriors with the same contempt that they hold dedicated carebears and for much the same reasons. Both groups are risk adverse and, in my view at least, detrimental to an organization's ability to survive. Carebears won't undock because they are afraid of losing something and the killboard warriors won't undock unless they are assured of a win. There is only one currency that matters in EVE, and it isn't isk, it isn't ships and it isn't tech. It is active pilots who are willing to log in! If you have groups that will only do so under very restrictive conditions like KB Warriors and Carebears, then you have a major organizational problem.
The motivations of TEST and GOONS are probably the easiest to figure out of any entity in EVE. Both groups exist to provide a community for their members to play together. That is the prime and only reason for them to exist.
Next you have to realize that the "Carebear lifestyle" that you are so fond of simply has always been impossible for both groups. I can only speak from direct experience with Dreddit and TEST, but it is my understanding that Goons experienced nearly identical treatment. What happened in the case of Dreddit is that they were war deced from the very first day of their existence. By the end of their first month, that had grown to 4 or 5 continuous war decs by the supportive pubbies of Empire. At this time, there were rules in Dreddit against scamming, rules even about talking in local or smack talk at all! What they got in return was unending hostility and derision. So in order just to actually play this game. In order to give their industrialists a place to build stuff, their miners a place to mine and their ratters a place to rat they had to fight and fight hard from the very get go. If you go into an organization with that kind of history with the attitude that you don't want to fight, you can't expect a warm reception. Nor will you find support of that attitude from an organization with that history externally. The kind of play style that you advocate would have ment that Dreddit would never have made it past their first month and TEST wouldn't have happened at all. Your ideals are suicide and you seem to be eternally disappointed when your opponent doesn't do the honourable thing and shoot themselves in the head. Everyone said that Dreddit would go no where and the TEST was a dead end and most of those people would agree with what you say in your blog now. The reality is that there are all play styles represented inside the CFC.

What you experience external to the CFC with things like Hulkageadon and Burn Jita and the like can be summed up as "Narrative" and nothing else. Goons don't exist to make you miserable, they exist to give their members a place to play where they won't be persecuted endlessly. What you are seeing is their leadership doing things to keep their members engaged and logging in. Leadership in the CFC revolves around insuring that your members ALWAYS have something to do and friends to do it with. That means that events like Burn Jita are popular and a good way to drive group activity and build cohesion. They also serve as recruitment platforms as events like that tend to really drive new members to sign up. The fact that it makes you miserable is just a bonus really. The tears, hair pulling and wild speculation from people who, as the poster above put it "Lack the context even to insult us properly" is eternally amusing."
Thank you Matt for taking the time to explain all this to a carebear. I feel you, as my son would say. Now, to all my readers I say this. Stop abusing each other. We are all doing this for fun an LULZ. When I "slam" GSF it's for that reason and that reason alone. I don't hate them. I actually have a great deal of respect for them and for many of the reasons Matt outlines. There's a good reason GSF has been around so long. So oppose them in game (as I have chosen to do,) but treat them respectfully otherwise. They deserve no less. (Same goes for you too GSF.)

Fly careful.


  1. The thing that CFCers like Matt don't seem to get is that what goes around comes around. Goons are dicks, and proud of it. Test are Goons slavish kid brother. So they get indignant about being insulted and want to put the record straight but the point they miss is that no one insulting them cares. Truth is just a form of ammunition in the game that they themselves pioneered.

    You can't have a propaganda arm and still effectively say "hey guys, be nice, you're missing the point."

  2. I just saw this and I am honestly staggered! Thank you for posting that! I am humbled and honoured.

    @Stabs : I think what I was trying to show was exactly that, what comes around goes around. Dreddit was treated quite poorly by the people of Empire and because of that don't exactly hold warm feelings towards them. Goons were literally the ONLY people who gave Dreddit support. They hot dropped our very first mining op (think 200 rifters with one mining laser and a gun that might be loaded or might not) and then offered us a NAP and full access to their frig cashe. At this point, everyone who had heard of Dreddit were just war decing us for the easy kills. Turns out, the dicks were the people of high-sec and the awesome people who just wanted to help a big group of newbies were the Goons. They were our friends when no one else would be.

    Dreddit was there for the taking. Anyone could have reached out their hands and gained TEST as an ally. But what we got from the South and IT was insults and we were told that "Newbies are useless", "Newbies are a detriment in a fleet", and pretty much everything listed in the video "EVE Newbies Welcome". Instead it was the "dicks" of EVE who stepped up.

    In the end, Dreddit and TEST remembers their friends and stands by them like they stood by us.

  3. The magnitude of this game "politics" fascinates me , and I have only be playing for almost 2 full months now, the complexity of all the connections, alliances, the CSM, pirates, carebears, goons, Test, 0.0, good guy or bad guy, and all the rest makes one hell of a story. You may like it or not but you do not became indifferent by it.

    I want to know more and experience more, so all of you keep writing and I will keep reading.

    Matt, aren't you doing exactly the same thing, other did to your corp in the beginning?

    Or this game is REALLY a your not with me you are against me?

    But don't take this the wrong way, I am still to "new" to hate anyone or anything, I am just asking.

    1. To some extent it is.. but it is David and Goliath. The people of high-sec outnumber residents of ALL nul-sec alliances by about 2 to 1. If I head into Empire, I generally don't do it on my main and I certainly wouldn't do it on a TEST character. It is easy for any entity in high-sec to grief TEST, just war dec them. You can kill newbies all day just roaming around looking for war targets. On the other hand, it is very difficult for a large organization like TEST to target and eliminate these groups, which is why they simply ignore them. It would be hunting mosquitoes with a howitzer, it wouldn't hold the pilots interest unless there was something special about it (generally hubris). In that case they will make someone's life miserable until they sing on Youtube.

      So really, the situation has never changed. High-sec is still very hostel to TEST and they pretty much just return the favour, Goons as well just as it was at the beginning. Maybe that is just EVE, vOv. Neither Goons nor TEST is adverse to enemies BTW. Both would LOVE to see a "pubbie uprising" where the people of Empire actually organize and protect themselves. The reality is they are far more powerful, but are so fragmented it is nearly impossible to communicate with any number of them in any meaningful way. The 99% is an alliance founded by members of TEST to teach the people of high-sec how to fight Goons and TEST. They really tried to recruit and organize people, had high-profile folks who started it.. the whole bit. But because most high-secers don't read the EVE news sites and don't really go into the forums, it was very hard to reach anything but a small subset of players. They were certainly successful as a Alliance. They took a brand new corp and alliance and put it in nul-sec and on the map in about six months and recruited primarily in high-sec. When people say it is impossible for a new corp to break into nul, remember that.

      As for EVE being about "if you aren't with me, you are against me".. ya, that is pretty much what NBSI means (Not Blue, SHOOT IT!) lol. That being said, NBSI is all about making friends because you can't stand alone. But, this being EVE, often your first encounter with friends is accompanied by rapid gift giving, delivered at high velocity.

    2. I understand your point, but I can´t imagine everyone in Hig sec wantng to kill goons or test or you, but then again I am "new", but learning every day.

      On other hand since this game allow many alts and other accounts I imagine, there must be many pilots in Hig sec that know you, goons, test and other null sec coorps, because they are there in null sec, with their mains, and know the game and how it works, and if this is partly true some might enjoy giving you pain and griefing.

      Or are there, hig sec coorps big enough to rival null sec ?
      And thank you for answering my question.

    3. This comment has been removed by the author.

    4. Its 9 years later, many thing have changed i am, sure even people. We must adapt to survive and to keep having fun I guess.

  4. Goons are TEST are well known, not just because of their size but really because of the history of the Goons (TEST is lumped in there because we are so closely associated with them). Goons have had a massive impact on this game and its mechanics. They seem to really love finding ways to break the game. As much as they love finding the bugs, they really really hate being ignored. So they tell CCP, are ignored and then decide to show CCP what, exactly, they are talking about. The faction warfare LP exploit is the most recent example. The thing that put them formost in the minds of the people of Empire however was the war dec system. Wars in EVE cost a certain amount of money per week. That has never really changed. But it used to be that each war cost exactly the same amount. To a organization the size of Goons that wasn't a very high entry barrier, so they decided one day to turn all of empire into nul-sec and war deced everyone! That is why each extra war you get into cost exponentially more. But I think the real reason is that Goons, and to a lesser extent TEST, represent a major culture shift in EVE.

    Before Goons the prevailing attitude was one of e-Bushido. "Honourable space warriors doing battle for fame and fortune" kinda thing. You still see some reminants of it when people jokingly say "1v1 at the sun!" as a retort. That used to really be how it was, and the best PVPers were well respected. BoB (later IT) was pretty much entirely founded on this, with the "best" players being in BoB and the lesser players renting and being part of the GBC (Greater BoB Coalition). Now, in a 1v1 SP is something that makes a massive difference. Yes, skill and learning to fly is important, but really at that level it is about fitting and SP. Goons came into the game somewhat late and were in the same position as Dreddit. They had lots of bodies, but no FCs and they couldn't fly any of the ships popular at the time. Frigs were though of as lowly newbie toys and new players were pretty much railroaded out of the game. The view of EVE being totally new player unfriendly comes from this period of the game. So Goons got all their newbies, dumped them in rifters and were the first to use "The swarm" as a tactic for success. It worked because organization and team work always win over ISK and SP in EVE. The problem is the old guard hated it, and still hate it. The guys who joined Nuli fighting the CFC (Raiden., etc) are the left-overs from those days. Too bitter to adapt to the new way of doing things. They don't fight because they need to, they fight out of avarice, which is likely why they keep loosing over and over.

    con't next post

    1. Then of course there is the way they treated their friends and allies. Again, you can still see remnants of this when you look at the organizations facing off against the CFC. They have things called CTAs (Call to Arms), where if you are online and don't show up for an op, you get kicked. It is all very serious business and more like a job than a game. The CFC is completely different. They don't rent systems, every alliance that lives with them lives with them as friends and isn't paying a monthly fee. They don't have CTAs, do what you want (not actually participating in your own defence is frowned on, but you won't be kicked for it). Towards their members, they are very happy-go-lucky anything goes. Almost the exact opposite of BoB and the old guard attitudes.

      Much of that old guard retreated to Empire and now just stay there bitching about how "The blob takes no skill" and trying to get CCP to change the game so that their SP and ISK is the end-all and be-all. Culture from 0.0 also flows very very slowly into Empire. It is like a time warp. Because BoB was so successful for so long, that is still the attitudes and methods that people think are successful. They just assume that TEST and Goons are the same. Sooner or later the culture will change, but not without resistance and a whole lot of resentment from those who are loosing power to the new dynamic.

    2. But numbers always win, no mater the game, real battle, you name it, if you have 10000 "average" players vs 1000 excellent players, what will be the winners ?
      I bet is the 10000 "average" players , but I am over simplifying things.

      I can relate to people that spent 9 years working hard gathering, power, skill, and any other sort of thing, they think they are entitled to more then new players, but do they?

      But this is a game, more real then most other games, and with more interaction Gamer/Dev then most games only might dream off, but still a game, so if things stay the same will it survive for long ?

      I like to think I want to be the honorable "player", "the good guy" the one the everyone respects, but this its not how things work, the player that does anything to win is usually the survivor and winner, the honor is death on the cemetery.

      I hope this makes some sense, adapt to survive or be obsolete and forgotten.
      I guess this is the way things are evolving to, do I like it maybe not, but you have to adapt or else you will vanish.

    3. I think you are right. The 10,000 players would win. Myself, I would say that is the way it should be. It is quite a bit harder to organize and keep the interest of 10K players than it is with 1000. In order to have a really big alliance.. the amount of work and skill involved in just mind blowing. First their is the IT infrastructure that needs to be built and maintained. Then you have your recruitment and then training departments. You need to have a wiki up and populated and people who are working all the time to add more and more to that resource. Once you have all that up, it is a constant drive to get people to use it and to disseminate information. Lastly, you need to give everyone a reason to fight and a story to be a part of. I think all that work and skill should be rewarded more highly than someone who simply has been subbed longer so they have more SP. But that is me.

      Those older players could be an asset to any alliance if they wanted to be. If they could get over their bigotry and elitism towards new players. As for the honourable space combat stuff... It is still there and happens all the time. Again, leadership in one of these nul-sec alliances is about making sure your members always have something to do, and that includes PVP. If you are taking out a roam, you will often call up your opponents and ask them if they want to fight. Or you will go for a roam in their space, find no one and then ask in local if anyone wants to fight. That is actually a good way to make friends as well and is how the whole Delve war started. TEST wanted a good fight, Nuli called in cavalry rather than go for "gud fights" so TEST decided they can play that game as well and then brought the hammer down with PL and Goons and the rest of the CFC.

      An important distinction in 0.0 PVP is the difference between roams and strategic operations. Strategic ops are for the alliance. Structure grinds, really big fleet operations, that kind of thing. There are times when small roams are also part of this when it is a deployment where we are trying to put constant pressure on. Strat ops are were you get reimbursed if you loose your ship for instance. More normal roams are not strat ops. They can be lead by anyone, called by anyone and aren't reimbursable. That is where you see the "Honourable space combat" happen cause there really isn't anything on the line other than pride and a good night out.

      So in the end, there are fights for fun and then fights for survival. In a fight for survival, anything goes.

    4. I can only imagine in part ,the herculean effort its must take to organize and keep happy 10k players, but if you have something to fight for , you 0.0 space, a idea or any other incentive its easier to manage I guess, and of course friends to support or comrades in arms to watch your back, people like to belong and believe in something, if you manage all of this I guess you can have happy players.

      I guess in the end to most people this might be enough.

      Well now I have some L4 missions to do, finally manage to get u the barrier of 300 millions =).

      This was a great conversation Matt. Thanks for maintaining it, and of course Thanks all Mabrick for making the post.


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