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Thursday, May 17, 2012

I need some advice.

I'm an industrialist. I'm a carebear at heart. That doesn't mean I abhor fighting and hold in contempt the martial arts. Nothing could be further from the truth. I simply choose a path of serenity and peaceful coexistence. I defend myself when I must.

But the universe is changing. Change itself is neither good nor bad. Change is only inevitable. As markets rise and fall, so does peaceful coexistence swing from one extreme to the other. Life is a pendulum, first favoring one side and then doubling back on itself to pursue the other. Without external influences, it will eventual come to rest - entropic equilibrium. It is naive to believe that will ever happen. The universe is full of agents provocateur whose actions continually reinvigorate the pendulum. It's as close to perpetual motion as we'll ever come.

Soon the pendulum will begin it's climb again. Life will be different. I'll still be an industrialist, for in chaos there is profit, but those profits may be harder to obtain and even more difficult to retain. The new era requires a different mindset. I will not say a military mindset. That is for grand alliances and empires to ponder. But just as the mountain man existed side-by-side with the First Nations, adopting their wisdom to survive, so must tomorrow's industrialist adapt or die.

Enough of philosophy though. The time for philosophical pursuits is fast ending. Onward to the subject at hand. I recently undertook a foray into WH space. I took the Prinz Eugen into an unoccupied C3 and blew up a Sleeper battleship and cruiser. It was lucrative. However, it became clear to me that the Prinz Eugen was not a hit and run fit. He could tank the Sleepers well enough but needed more DPS in order to deal with more than a couple Sleepers at a time and do so in a timely enough manner as to not draw attention from more itinerant and dangerous inhabitants.

So, now for the part where I need some advice.The point is to keep overhead down and to maximize return on investment. Keep that in mind. I don't want to spend a fortune to make a fortune. That's a sum-zero fool's equation. With that in mind, take a look at these two Drake fits.
They cost about the same. They do about the same DPS. One has a better tank and the other less signature radius. Which of these would you take into a WH? Does the smaller signature radius make that much difference? Is it enough to make up for the lack of tank and capacitor? How would you make a better anti-Sleeper Drake?

Fly careful.

26 comments:

  1. To kill sleepers in a C3 I'd rather use a Gila. It doesn't have quite the EHP or DPS, but it has a smaller sig radius, and can deal with different sized targets more easily. It also has high slots for things like probe launchers and salvagers, which I consider mandatory in w-space. Stick to sentry and light drones, though, and be prepared to recall them when they're targeted. Mediums and heavies are too slow and tend to die. Yes it's 130 mil more than the Drake, but the salvagers will make up the difference pretty quickly.

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  2. Without a MWD you won't be doing any damage with HAMs. Even with, you'll be a lot better off with HMLs.

    For the mids, I'd just go 2xAIF, 1xPhoton and fit an AB or MWD.

    For the rigs, I'd go triple purgers.

    How will you be salvaging btw?

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    1. Salvaging will be taken care of by a corp mate. He's young and can't really help in the fight but he'll be more than capably of cleanup.

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    2. If your young corp-mate can't fit a cloak you should get him training for it. He can sit off one of the wormholes in a cloaked salvager with cloak+probe launcher fitted and act as a scout.

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  3. You have more than 1 accounts right? Prinz Eugen jumps first, you just let the tank run, release drones, Alt-Tab something with no tank and kill them.

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    1. You absolutely have to stop advising people on stuff you know nothing about.

      Sleeper AI swaps targets, and will prime the guy with low EHP and high DPS.

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  4. Salvaging is an important part of making money in a WH. Try switching out the probe launcher for a salvager and get a scanning ship in the WH. Scout out the areas and then switch ships. I agree with the above poster in regards to the purger rigs and heavy launchers. As for Gevlon's comment, WH mobs don't act like mission mobs. They will switch targets so every ship in the site needs to be tanked.

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  5. @Gevlon - that's a terrible idea as sleepers switch targets and will kill an untanked ship quickly.

    Re your fits - I would not suggest soloing in a c3 with that much tank, it's simply not sufficient. C1 and c2 they'll be fine, though HAMs are not ideal and you'll spend some time slowboating.

    I'm assuming that your method is:
    1. Find wh
    2. Fully scan all sigs
    3. If many wh connections, discard wh and look for new
    4. if only the ls/hs static/k162+one connection then place cloaked alt 80km off the dangerous hole (i.e. hs entrance is more dangerous than ls and should be scouted). use "Look at" to focus screen on wh.
    5. cloaky alt keeps one probe in air, ignores all anoms/sigs, you press probe scan every 30 sec - a new sig appearing generally means someone has opened a wh into you and you should gtfo until your scout scans it down and a threat assesment is made.

    If that's the sort of method you use then a 400 dps tank drake is fine.


    An example would be:
    You find a c3 with high sec static, scout and bookmark the POSs, checking killboards and corp/alliance info shows a small corp with no kills, checking info on the wh itself shows no player or sleeper kills in 48 hours. Wormhole seems perfect!
    You send out probes - 18 anoms! 6 sigs.. scanning resolves some gas, some rocks, 2 radars and 2 wormholes. One is a k162 from dangerous c5 space, however it's critically unstable and end of life (c5 corp using the hs static for hauling) the other a link to a c4 wormhole.
    Once all sigs are resolved and bookmarked you jump cloaky alt into c4 to scout and find an empty system with no pos's (quite common with c4s).
    Risk assesment -
    the c5 is active, and due to it's critical nature is unscoutable
    the c4 is empty, though may have connections to active wormholes
    the hs static wormhole is always dangerous

    Is the system worth raiding? Plenty of isk here, though some risk. Personally I would not raid without a cloaky scout on every wh and probes in the air. D-scan and probe scan constantly. If a c5 corp opens up a wh into you you need to know instantly, 99% of the time they're looking for kills or a high sec - don't provide them with both.

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    1. Risk assessment is certainly something that I will have to do constantly. This is where I have to admit I want to keep the cost low due to the high risk. I've only ever found one unoccupied C2. I've never found an unoccupied C1. If I am to do this, it seems the C3 is my best bet. Not so dangerous I can't raid it and less likely to be occupied. However, that was a very good point about C5er's passing through.

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  6. Two drakes will let you duo most, but not all C3 sites. I don't fly drakes in the c3 corp that I'm in but I would drop a shield extender in favor of a 2nd Adaptive invulnerable, your ehp might be lower but a with less sig radius sleeper missiles won't hit you anywhere near as hard. The gold standard for C3's is Tengu's, with two of those you can duo pretty much every C3, although that is a ton of isk and not what you're asking for. I include it to highlight the difficulty in difference between sites. Use Eve Survival and look your sites up, to find kill orders and assess difficulty.

    Finally, salvage is 50% of the value of sleeper sites, if you're not salvaging you're throwing away tons of money. I can't post our results but we have graphs from 2 months of c3 sites that support that conclusion.

    Have fun in w-space.

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  7. @LordShout - you can solo every C3 anom in a properly tanked passive HML drake. It does take time.

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  8. Also: A good wh resident will be able to scan you down with combat probes only being on dscan for a handful of seconds, assuming you're being a good boy and spamming the crap out of the dscan. Next thing you'll know 4 pvp fit ships are warping onto you and it's sad day for you. Happily if you pick the right holes w-space is still incredibly profitable.

    The right holes are those with off-lined pos's, or tons of sites and anoms up because both for those factors tend towards the corp not being active enough to catch you.

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    1. A good WH resident can find people in anoms without probes ;)

      Mash DSCAN all you want, if you get bump tackled from a ship coming out of cloak you have no warning. Ergo why a WH is dangerous.

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  9. I disagree, I've seen properly tanked drakes, tengus and myrmidons get lol-focused at the wrong time, it's a low percentage issue but it could happen. The real danger is that even a fairly unoccupied hole is dangerous space to be in, with no local you don't know when someone is sneaking up behind you, and if you're spending 45 minutes per site even the most incompetent w-space resident will be able to track you down.

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    1. Yeah, my test raid took a total of 41 minutes. That was far to long for my liking.

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  10. If I only had 2 accounts to take into a wormhole I would never ever ever take 2 dps ships. If you cannot have a scout, with probes up, then you don't have any business expecting to survive.

    My corp lives in a c5 with a static c3, we spent hours yesterday rolling our static in search of victims. We use cloaky proteus/loki/arazu as tacklers. Unless we get an unlucky spawn near the wh (too close to insta cloak) you will never see us on d-scan. If you're in an anomoly we won't need combat probes. You have between 30 seconds to a couple minutes before your ships are tackled.

    The only way you can defend against this is by noticing the new signature and getting safe.

    p.s. none of the anoms will take anywhare near 45min even with a spr-laden 400dps tank drake.

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  11. Yeah that CRIT/EOL K162 isn't going to make a difference. We'll still jump through for a kill. Especially if we know there is a K-Space connection we can use. We'll just have someone scan us back in later.

    You're inevitably going to get jumped. Just try to be efficient and set aside some isk for that replacement Drake you're going to have to buy.

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  12. http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/34790-C3-WH-Drake.html

    That's a pretty good drake fit, although I'd avoid anoms with heavy neuting. For farming frontiers or w/e it should work just fine. You can drop one SPR for a BCU once you're happy that the tank is enough and have some more experience. Drop the salvager for w/e, maybe a probe launcher. Salvaging as you go is horribly slow - use a ship with salvage rigs (catalyst, noctis if you're feeling confident in your scouting). Allowing the anoms to despawn before salvaging makes it safer.

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  13. Asked around in corp for advice from regular c3 raiders and been reminded that frontiers are one of the heavier neuting c3 sites (solar cell is worse), changing an invuln for a shield recharger will make them easier.

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    1. I did the first wave of a Solar Cell. They neut-scram-webbed the crap out of me. My tank held up just fine but it took far too long to defeat just two ships. I should have been jumped. I just knew the system was really, really unoccupied (I scouted it twice in Space Ghost to be as sure as possible.) Still, I got lucky and I know it.

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    2. Scouting a system only shows you that it's empty *at that time* - the second you take away that scout you have zero information and should assume hostiles.

      If you want to find more empty systems then I'd seriously suggest looking in lowsec. A c2 or C3 with a lowsec static is less likely to be inhabited than a highsec static. Also lowsec wormholes see far less traffic and you wont get jumped by a highsec corp looking for pvp.

      I still believe very strongly that running sites without having scouts on the wormholes and probes in the air is a sure-fire way to get ganked.

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    3. That is a very interesting point you make about low-sec statics. Thanks!

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    4. Another point worth making - if there's a few or you (say 4-5+) then spider tanking drakes in a c4 becomes viable. C4s are empty a lot of the time, also harder to access. If you take a pos you can set up for the day, run all the sites and erm profit!

      Only problem is..c4s are hard to access. Spider tanked drakes work well in c3 also.

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    5. I'm coming a bit late to the show, and most advice you can get on the subject has already been given. The only thing I'll add is: Always check which sort of stellar anomaly you are dealing with if you see that message saying that your ship is affected by strange effects.

      Particularly the Wolf-Rayet star systems should be avoided if you are shield tanking.

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Be civil, be responsible and most of all be kind. I will not tolerate poor form. There will be no James Hooks here. We are all better than that.